Buddhism on abortion

topic posted Wed, June 27, 2007 - 9:25 PM by  Unsubscribed
I got to thinking the other day...

what would be the approach Buddhist would take on abortion..

Any thoughts?
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  • Re: Buddhism on abortion

    Wed, June 27, 2007 - 10:30 PM
    I'm going to leave this one to those much more learned,
    because I don't know the answer. I could guess or make
    something up, but that'd just be my opinion, not Buddhadharma.

    I will say however that even Christians make stuff up and allege
    their position to be "Biblical." Case in point: nowhere does the Bible
    intimate that conception is the beginning of human life. In fact, the
    Biblical standard of "life" is breathing! Since no foetus is breathing,
    the right to lifers are not correct. Now I'm deinately not making a statement
    or position on abortion per se, I'm simply pointing out that there's a disconnect
    between political positions and scripture. I'd be interested in somebody
    presenting a valid Buddhist view based on Authentic scriptural citation--
    be that Abhidahrma, Sutra, or Tantra.
  • Re: Buddhism on abortion

    Wed, June 27, 2007 - 11:53 PM
    His Holiness the Dalai Lama was asked a similar question on his recent tour around Australia.
    I can't quote him directly until my copy of the DVD arrives, but basically, if my memory serves me correctly, he said that abortion is killing and killing is one of the ten negative actions which should be avoided. But he also said that each case needs to be judged individually, and sometimes it might be ok to cut off one finger to save the other nine, so to speak.

    I personally don't try to look for dogmatic rules in Buddhism.
    I'd try to use the teachings to help me understand the consequences of my actions and apply that understanding to try to make a wise decision in each individual case.
    • Re: Buddhism on abortion

      Thu, June 28, 2007 - 7:55 AM
      I was told that incarnation happens @ conception. This was in response to asking specifically how long it takes one to incarnate. I can't quote a source to look up.

      Altho, you may find somewhere the explaination of what happens in the last stages of the Bardo before entering a womb; maybe Words of My Perfect Teacher.

      So, like, do the math.

      Tho I doubt any lama would say to a Westerner, ABORTION IS WRONG!! that way.
    • Re: Buddhism on abortion

      Thu, June 28, 2007 - 9:15 AM
      If His Holiness the Dalai Lama holds that
      life and conception are equated, then he
      contradicts himself because he has come
      out in favor of Stem cell research requiring
      the destruction of blastulas. But blastulas are
      not yet foetuses-- they are undifferentiated tissue.
      He also stated that if it can save lives it must be good.

      Killing is clearly a root non-virtue.

      So the root of the question is according to Buddhism
      when does life begin? I think the answer may be in
      the root texts. Is that dogmatic? No. I'd remind the debater
      of the example of the Gay question. Lama Tsongkhapa
      says gay sex is wrong, but doesn't cite the scripture-- HHDL
      admits this, but as a Gelupa he respects Lama Tsongkhapa.
      Relatively modern commetaries can be mistaken with regard to
      the scriptures. Even the scriptures may be mistaken if they contradict
      reason and experience. But in the final analysis, if we are Buddhist--
      we have taken refuge (trust) in the three jewels. And we trust
      the enlightenment of the Buddhas more than we trust our egocentric-
      dualistic culturally-conditioned sensabilities.
      • Re: Buddhism on abortion

        Thu, June 28, 2007 - 12:35 PM
        When the red seed of the father unites with the white seed of the mother, the conciousness enters and joins with form, it is taught. From then on there is a sentient being, so, as was noted, abortion, is a killing. The teachings differ on exactly what kind of killing.

        As I recall it's not that gay sex per se is said to generate negative karma, but oral and anal sex, regardless of the gender of those participating in it. It is my understanding that the earliest teaching on this was by Ashvagosha, who dates were about 80 CE - 150 CE.
        • Re: Buddhism on abortion

          Thu, June 28, 2007 - 1:17 PM
          I think you could classify the exact process of conception and the transfer of consciousness as "extremely hidden" phenomenon. Whereas "very hidden" phenomenon might be experienced directly with good meditative awareness, phenomenon that are extremely hidden can only be obtained through reasoning and inference for ordinary beings. The inner workings of karma are I think also described as extremely hidden phenomenon. Only the Omniscient can know for certain what's going on.

          So then how do we test the validity of the texts that state that life starts at the moment of conception? Using the valid cognition that analysis for the conventional; inference basically. But what are the reasonings for such inference? I know of none personally, I can only hear those texts at face value and wonder if they're true or not. Same with the texts that state certain types of sexual practices produce negative karmic results. Though I do notice, for myself, that sex in general has a lot of potential karmic results both emotionally as well as practically. In that perhaps we can all agree.

          I suspect though that if we think or if we think it's possible that an abortion is causing harm to another sentient being, then negative seeds might be planted in our mind stream. They say that even if we dream of murdering someone, then negative seeds of karma will result. Though perhaps those seeds will not be as strong. Therefore, if we believe we are causing harm with an abortion, then some negative karma will result.
          • Re: Buddhism on abortion

            Fri, June 29, 2007 - 9:32 AM
            The teachings I have received state that the unborn being enters the body at the moment of conception, as has been stated here already. Therefore to abort a fetus at any stage is to rob that being of a precious human rebirth, which is considered to be a very heinous negative act because only in the form of a human can a being attain enlightenment, and obtaining such a rebirth is extraordinarly rare and hard to come by. I'm not sure what is meant by "how do we test the validity of the texts...". Either you have confidence in your teachers or you don't. There's no scientific way to test this.

            That said, I also agree that there Buddhism doesn't teach hard and fast rules like other religions (if Buddhism can even be considered a religion). Every case is different. There may be times when abortion is the least of all evils available and the most compassionate thing to do. It is difficult to make a blanket rule. But the karma of killing, and of killing a human being, will still be there no matter what the motivation, so it's not a step to take lightly.
            • Re: Buddhism on abortion

              Fri, June 29, 2007 - 1:05 PM
              I have seen a tradition of trusting one's teacher, especially in the Vajrayana path. But also in the vajrayana, as far as I can tell, there's a strong tradition of testing the teachings and the textual traditions for validity, and discussing them critically. And that is consistent with the words of the Great Teacher himself, who asked us to test any teaching like gold, rubbing it, burning it, to determine if it is authentic first hand.

              And in general, there seems to be a strong foundation in logic and reasoning, as part of the monastic training. In shedra at Namdröling Monastery, for example, students spend years discussing the logic and reasoning about the view. They do this before pursuing any serious meditation practice, so they are sure to practice with the proper view. They use the discipline of valid cognition based on syllogistic logic, and in some cases the monks spend hours a day debating using those logical forms. So there seems to be a lot of rubbing and burning of the dharma. One might even say that it's the rubbing and burning process that bears the fruit, not just the hearing and memorizing.
              • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                Fri, June 29, 2007 - 6:05 PM
                Yes. Yes. And, I'd like to add that trusting one's teacher comes with time. I'm not saying that is what is being said here, but often it feels like there is a misconception that if one trusts their teacher, they are doing so blindly and that it's dangerous, particularly in the West. I think it's important to point out that even in traditions of trusting the teacher more than one's rationale comes from developing trust, from dialogue, from trying the teachings and methods given in one's own life and discovering the results, from making mistakes, from falling down completely, from leaving the teachings, dropping practice, from serious practice, from asking serious questions, and returning to the teachings and teacher time and time again. It's a trust that develops out of experience, not out of blind faith to the teacher or teachings, though that can happen to. There's a lot to be said for the combination that logic of debate and lived experience of applying teachings in the way one lives every moment of one's life that could be quite potent, powerful and transformative.
        • Re: Buddhism on abortion

          Sat, June 30, 2007 - 8:48 AM
          cite/link/quote? this is rather intriguing. i recall reading some judeo-chrisitian debate wherein it was posited that strictures against oral sex (anal was not mentioned) had more to do with extending control by constraining pleasure except as means to fulfill duty. i am curious if that teaching will speak to acts that prohibit or impede a precious human birth or if it will present/posit another reason.

          thank you.
        • Re: Buddhism on abortion

          Sat, July 21, 2007 - 7:12 AM
          "As I recall it's not that gay sex per se is said to generate negative karma, but oral and anal sex, regardless of the gender of those participating in it. It is my understanding that the earliest teaching on this was by Ashvagosha, who dates were about 80 CE - 150 CE."

          Whether gay or not. If sex is just for fun, imho it would give just same results as mind doesnt have any gender
          yet it appears in them all. But then again, there is bodhisattvas and bodhicitta who we all are
          trying to mimic in someway...
  • Re: Buddhism on abortion

    Fri, June 29, 2007 - 5:23 PM
    Hmm .. all the answers thus far are valid...

    My contention is that it is taking a life, even if that life has yet to be given a face, as has been mentioned that life begins at conception.
    We can see this is the case on the basis of experience also, as if the mother {host} dies, the foetus also will more often than not die as well. Conception begins the moment the red "drop" of the mother and the white "drop" of the father meet. Or sperm and ovum {if one prefers}, of course there are many other causal relationships going on. Thus I think it should be best to avoid it, who knows one could conceive a tulku, although this is beyond our normal coneptualisation of conception, {though not technically as much so as immaculate conception!} That said, I will turn to what I have heard of the buddhist approach to abortion.

    That it needs to be a case by case analysis. ie- Is the birth going to cause imminent danger to the mother, {is the death of a mother caused by the foetus, one would think not intentionally} or, is there a situation of suffering to the child; this of course would need to be a much maligned situation, beyond the normalcy of samsaric suffering that we all a party to. One would necessarily need to have some realisation into the mental continua of the child. This is what Lama Yeshe say's...

    Question: What about contraception?

    Lama: I’m not going to talk about the Buddhist point of view; I’m going to talk about this monk’s point of view. I have to be careful. However, my observation of the Western world is that contraception is a very good thing because many young people are not ready to have children and when they do, instead of growing, they go crazy. I have students like this. They are young, super-intelligent and well educated, but as soon as they have babies they become unbelievably miserable. I’ve seen intelligent, worldly-wise girls suddenly become terrible, with no capability, no happiness, and no love for their man; they hate everything. It’s incredible. If those girls hadn’t had babies, over time, they could have become incredibly spiritually developed.

    Parenthood brings with it many societal obligations; having a baby is a big responsibility. So, for those who cannot control their desire for sexual pleasure, contraception is essential. Also, if you can prevent an unwanted pregnancy from occurring, you eliminate the possibility of having to consider killing the fetus by abortion. Buddhism explains that for a sentient being to come from the intermediate state into a human rebirth the mother’s womb should be healthy and unobstructed. In other words, the conditions should be perfect. If you interrupt the conditions through contraception, it’s OK. It’s certainly better than madness. This is my own observation; I hope it doesn’t upset anybody.

    Question: Well, Lama, what about abortion?

    Lama: For Buddhists, abortion is difficult. It’s a question of morality, or ethics. But still, it’s a relative question. Let’s say that you don’t have an abortion and that the next twenty years of your life are miserable. And even more misery comes from that. Yet you think nothing of killing fish and small animals. Relatively, which is worse? Good and bad are relative; good karma and bad karma are relative. I’m not making any statement here; it’s just something for you to think about.

    At a course on death and rebirth, London, 1981
    • Unsu...
       

      my own personal notions on life

      Sat, June 30, 2007 - 1:30 PM
      Personaly, I been slowly merging into the acceptance of death as an active activity..not a passive one that happen to us,
      we humans, as a group, are master killers.. of ourselves and of the animal kingdom, plants, insects and more.

      Nature shows us that animals kill with restraint.. just enough to survive.

      Us humans, specially in the west, have expanded the causes and reasons for killing...due to our supposed intelligence.

      As horrifying at it sounds, I am afraid that we humans kill almost habitualy; and killing through abortion.. well that is just one more of heaps of killings we cause...just as Lama Yeshe points out.. animals have their place too and karma is does not exclude their killings.

      I personally would integrate my own personal killings of all kinds and types into the abortion issue...
    • Re: Buddhism on abortion

      Mon, July 2, 2007 - 12:10 PM
      i'm kind of stuck on the oral/anal issue. could someone clarify?
      • Re: Buddhism on abortion

        Mon, July 2, 2007 - 2:53 PM
        It's my fault. I used gay sex as an analogy
        to demonstrate a point about how commentaries
        can carry opinions that are not directly linked
        with sutra in a way that can be demonstated
        (at present) with sutric dictums. I apologise,
        it is not a topic related to the moment that
        sentience occurs.

        Typically, according to Buddhadharma,
        sentience is granted to animals but not plants.
        But that does not take into consideration creatures
        that are neither / both.

        The main question, in my mind, involved in answering
        this question is epistemological.
        • Re: Buddhism on abortion

          Mon, July 2, 2007 - 7:43 PM
          thanks mark. it raised the question for me of whether or not one will put faith in a teacher's guidance if it involves sexual prohibition. but i think that's another thread :-)
          • Re: Buddhism on abortion

            Mon, July 2, 2007 - 10:38 PM
            Doctrinal issues are always complex, not straightforward.
            In the sutric vehicles there are specific rules of epistemology.
            The sutras are not taken at face value but are debated so that one
            arrives at a direct experience that is incontrovertable. Sutric teachings
            have a logical basis. If, for example, Science were to disprove a doctine,
            the doctrine would have to be changed. However, the debate would have
            to proceed according to rules of Buddhist dialectic and a council of many
            sects would have to agree to the change.

            There are levels of morality and degrees of subtlty. What's called a downfall
            applies to those who have vows to fall from. For lay practitioners, there are other
            rules. So the prohibition of sexual misconduct depends largely on context.

            Wisdom teachers are trustworthy on the basis that they have engaged just
            such a process of hearing, study, contemplation and debate, and finally
            practice to actualize the meaning. Even so, we don't take their word for it,
            we engage exactly the same practice they did.

            Where tantra is concerned, you do this testing of the teacher and the teachings
            *before* taking empowerment and vows. In both vehicles the guru-disciple
            relationship is built on a personal relationship of mutual trust.
            • Re: Buddhism on abortion

              Tue, July 3, 2007 - 10:17 PM
              <<<There are levels of morality and degrees of subtlty. What's called a downfall
              applies to those who have vows to fall from. For lay practitioners, there are other
              rules. So the prohibition of sexual misconduct depends largely on context>>>

              Well, no.

              Taking the various pratimoksha vows is one thing. It's not exactly a prohibition, but a voluntary decision not to engage in activities that generate negative karma.

              And that is the other thing: acts of misconduct generate negative karma, whether one has taken vows not to commit them or not. If one kills another human being, negative karma is set in motion, regardless of the vows one has taken.
              • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                Tue, July 3, 2007 - 10:45 PM
                There are loopholes. Like if you kill someone but you die first, then you don't suffer the karmic result. Also if you kill someone but never find out that you killed the other person, I believe the yogacara tenet system would say here that you would also not suffer the karmic result. And then there are the teachings that say in order to plant a karmic seed one must have a "complete" karmic act, which means one must not regret the action. If that's true, then for a seed to be planted one must not regret what one did.

                But I agree with you, some negative habituation of mind or point of view will likely result from killing someone no matter the context. But I also agree with the Yogacara, that karma is planted in the eighth consciousness (alaya) by the sixth consciousness. Therefore, one must be consciously aware of what happened in order for the habituation of mind to increase. So not knowing that you killed someone would not necessarily cause a karmic result.

                And then it's important to note that all the teachings on karma are provisional, they "lead one further". They are not definitive, or in accord with the absolute truth.
              • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                Tue, July 3, 2007 - 10:49 PM
                Hence the word ''largely.''

                Of course there are consequences associated
                will all karmas. But karma teachings aren't exaclty
                morality eachings either. Virtue and non-virtue connect
                with happiness and suffering, not a priori shoulds and
                shouldn'ts. What one chooses after knowing the teachings
                is a choice. Given many teachings, it makes sense for a
                layperson to focus on the big ones. Also motivation plays
                into it as a significant factor at the bodhisattva level at least.
                • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                  Wed, July 4, 2007 - 8:22 PM
                  i just got a call from my father--his olddog, bear, is in terrible pain from lymes disease. no amount of healing practice has been able to relieve him, he's crying from the pain, can't walk (dog, not father) and the vets are saying bear needs to be "put to sleep". my father's wife is all for it, and so now it comes down to his decision and he doesn't want to kill his dog, but he can't stand to see bear in so much pain. when he asked me what i thought, i didn't know.. my gut says that if they're able to relieve bear's pain with something like drugs, and let him live until his own body determines the right time, that is in the best interest of everyone. but if bear is completely unable to move and always suffering, would it not be more compassionate to help him die? sort of a variation on the abortion theme... if the motivation is to relieve suffering, is the act purified?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Buddhism on abortion

                    Wed, July 4, 2007 - 9:06 PM
                    Oh that's so sad to hear. Thank you for telling us about bear. :(

                    Not sure what a tibetan lama might say to this, but I have often heard that a bodhisattva breaks rules for the sake of compassion. And relieving suffering, that's what Buddhism is all about.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Buddhism on abortion

                    Wed, July 4, 2007 - 9:30 PM
                    my heartfelt sympathies to your father, his wife, you, and bear. it is never easy when a loved one is suffering and there is no help for relief. i am hardly qualified to speak from any position of authority, and am uncertain if i should speak at all... but to the extent that the urge rises, perhaps it will be helpful. if not, my apologies for adding to rather than mitigating matters.

                    there are few opportunities in life to be directly able to end suffering for another. in my experience, every such opportunity is a challenge to understand compassion as more than 'the duty to be nice'. compassion is not always nice, but it is always motivated by right intent and right motivation.

                    with that said... simply a question... if there is no remedy, is it more compassionate to watch and prolong suffering or to act to end it?
                    • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                      Thu, July 5, 2007 - 12:16 AM
                      "if there is no remedy, is it more compassionate to watch and prolong suffering or to act to end it? "

                      To end sufferings of animal is based on misconceptualised point of view.
                      Actually, you dont just want to see suffering. When you kill this animal, it is possible
                      that this karma which causing this effect isnt stopping, actually it can just increase,
                      and he have to go it trough in next life.

                      Its good if you can help that particular animal with pain medicine or prayers, mantras etc.
                      • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                        Thu, July 5, 2007 - 3:58 AM
                        thank you for your opinion, but please try to realize that your view is not the only view, nor is it necessarily the right view for everyone else. add to this that your judgment of others and assumption as to their thoughts or what they do or do not want is not as much a valid statement as your own projection of the motivations of others.
                        • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                          Thu, July 5, 2007 - 7:45 AM
                          the views on this are very helpful. though i agree with fenix that it's not so cut and dry there being a right view...

                          i am troubled by the tough love argument that one should allow another being his/her/its suffering as a way to bring karma to fruition-- it seems an easy way to avoid compassionate action. though, on the other hand, if one's motivation is due to a selfish discomfort with having to witness another's suffering, then it's not entirely compassionate.

                          it is quite a dilemma.

                          to confuse matters further... my father found bear as a puppy a few years after my brother's death--a death that was tragic and it was my father who stood in the hospital room alone with my brother in the final minutes. there has been a sense among us that bear has aspects of my brother's mind and, whether or not this is true, it is clear that my father's loss and helpessness with my brother's death is tied closely to his feelings for bear.

                          i will be having an interview in the next couple days with Thubten Nyingpo Rinpoche, who is visiting our center from tibet this week and giving teachings on the bardo/powa practice. i have this fantasy of having my father come from new york with bear and that Rinpoche will be able to preside over whatever needs to be done.

                          i'm sure its only in places like the u.s. that crazy inges would ask realized beings to transfer the consciousness of their dogs...

                          maybe a dog psychic would be most helpful at this point?
                          • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                            Thu, July 5, 2007 - 9:56 AM
                            phowa for bear: sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
                            a friend had khandro rinpoche bless her bunnies.
                            • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                              Thu, July 5, 2007 - 10:41 AM
                              i would have her bless my bunnies, or anything for that matter :-)

                              • Unsu...
                                 

                                Re: Buddhism on abortion

                                Thu, July 5, 2007 - 11:40 AM
                                My deepest sympathies....

                                If I where in that situation, I would try to make the decision by weighing heavily the needs for the dog, and disregards my own wants from the dog.

                                How to relate to the needs of the dog?.. I have no idea. If the dog where in the wild.. he would probably die a slow miserable death or fall victim of prey and die a quicker death.

                                Regardless of the body, the spirit of the dog will live on, i believe, and so the particular of temporary circumstances would not matter so much, in the big scheme of things.

                                Whatever happens in the future, I get the feeling that the dog has been blessed to be with his companion care and love...
                          • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                            Thu, July 5, 2007 - 3:14 PM
                            >i am troubled by the tough love argument that one should allow another being his/her/its suffering as a way to bring karma to fruition-- it seems an easy way to avoid compassionate action.

                            It's easy to say that one actually has the compassion necessary to engage in "compassionate action" but that's rarely the case. Hence there's aspiring Bodhicitta as a preliminary. Conversely, I'm reminded of those who want to do ultimate practices without
                            having become qualified by accomplishing relative practices. The bodhisattvayana is not an easy path.

                            But according to Buddhadharma, the do suffer and suffering is the exhausting of karma.
                            But what exactly is karma and how does it function? Most people using this term haven't actually studied the texts. They just have theories.

                            The question of euthenasia often has more to do with wanting them out of our misery than them out of theirs. Animals don't have the same kind of time-consciousness that we do,
                            so far as we can tell. They are very much in the moment. They don't think "I really shouldn't be feeling another day of this... when is it going to end?" Time is a human-realm neurosis.

                            ...or so I think.
                            • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                              Thu, July 5, 2007 - 4:15 PM
                              One of my teachers, Lama Zopa Rinpoche, has an animal sanctuary set up. That is my opinion of that debate.
                              It is better to have the animals create more virtuous seeds. Rinpoche is famously fond of shouting mantras, and playing sutras to the animals.

                              And, I'm sure he is more than apt at knowing whether a particular animal needs tough love or not. I'm with Mark'la on karma as well.

                              Rinpoche site, www.fpmt.org/projects/alp/ ,for the sanctuary info..

                              Another one of Penor Rinpoche student's project's, Jetsunma Ahkon Lhamo , www.tarasbabies.org/



                              With much kindness,
                              Tashi
                        • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                          Thu, July 5, 2007 - 12:43 PM
                          Actually, Bamboo's view is the right view, or at least the only view that I have ever heard any lama express on the subject when asked about putting down animals that are terminally ill, that is, the being is bringing to fruition negative karma through its suffering that it will not have to go through again in future lives. And when we kill another being, even with what we think are the best of intentions, that is one of the gravest kinds of misconduct. Of course we can try to relieve the sufferings of others, but killing them primarily because they are suffering and it will not end in this life or because it makes us uncormfortable to see it is something else altogether. We are all suffering. That is the nature of samsara. Should we kill everyone?

                          Where do westerners get the idea that any one's view is as valid as anyone else's on this or any other matter? If that were the case we would all be fully enlightened beings long ago, no one would be suffering and samsara would have long ended.
                          • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                            Thu, July 5, 2007 - 3:06 PM
                            [KonchogDorje] re: Should we kill everyone?
                            I don't think the supposition was that Bear should be put down because he was suffering in samsara, but that he was suffering to a tremendous degree right before death. He's in hospice care, basically. And the question is about palliative care (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palliative_care) and if it would be better to provide further pain relief or euthanasia at this point. And that's a more subtle question.

                            I can certainly see that some will have a more black and white view that euthanasia is never the right kind of palliative care. I think that's the question that was being asked. And if the lama's you've heard are saying that for the ultimate benefit of the being they should suffer all the way to the end, so they can work off that karma. That's something really to consider seriously. Thank you for offering that teaching as you've heard it.

                            re: one's view is as valid as anyone else's
                            The view is not always black and white, in my experience. If it were as simple as having the right view, then enlightenment would be easy for everyone. If you ask different lamas something you don't always get the same answer. Therefore, who has the right view and who has the wrong view? Even the dharma is full of contradictions, which is the right view exactly? Or as one studies, one finds that many teachings are provisional, they lead one further, only to be discarded later.

                            Therefore, we must use reasoning and the best of our understanding and sharpen our view on the path. In fact, you could describe the whole path as a form of refining our view. If that's the case, then we're never holding a "right" view until we're enlightened and the path as a whole is a process of working from course, wrong views to a subtly more refined view.
                            • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                              Thu, July 5, 2007 - 7:05 PM
                              i think davee makes a lot of sense but in so doing, only opens up the dilemma again.

                              this evening after the teaching, i asked Ningpo Rinpoche is he would bless bear and work some mojo on him this weekend (if my father was willing to bring him to down from saratoga) he agreed, and so i called my dad and he said they gave bear a lethal injection about four hours ago. i didn't say anything about Rinpoche's offer, since it was too late, but i think if i were given the decision, i would have sought more spiritual help. since my father's not a buddhist, i guess i can't expect him to think that way but i wish i had asked rinpoche sooner. however, he just offered to say prayers for him--this is the benefit of having a lama in the house.

                              thank you all for your kind and helpful thoughts on this.
                              • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                                Thu, July 5, 2007 - 7:14 PM
                                oh! there were a bunch of posts i somehow didn't read and failed to respond to..

                                the animal sanctuary sounds wonderful. if i had the choice and he was my dog, now looking in retrospect, i would have looked for something like that if possible.

                                also, the point about animal's sense of time being different (at last the speculation that it might be) makes sense.

                                it's amazing how clear a decision can be made retrospectively....

                                i remember when my brother died, i hadn't had a relationship with him during his last year of life, because he was using a lot of drugs and i took the position that i would only have a relationship with him if he stopped using. then he died, and my biggest regret is that should have cherished every moment with him, no matter what his behavior. in essence, i felt so overwhelmed with his suffering that i closed my heart to him. closing one's heart to another being's suffering may be the first seed of much larger actions, whether or not a life is taken or saved...
                            • Re: Buddhism on abortion

                              Sun, August 5, 2007 - 2:27 AM
                              "Therefore, we must use reasoning and the best of our understanding and sharpen our view on the path. In fact, you could describe the whole path as a form of refining our view. If that's the case, then we're never holding