> In any case Je Rinpoche {Tsong Kahpa/ Lobsang Dragpey} originated theGalupgpa school to specifically counter the degeration of vinaya, wrong views and so forth of that time.

Fair enough. All I can say in reply is that the sectarian polemics of the Gelukpas (and the other schools) are less and less interesting to me as I age. The high-handedness of the Ganden school becomes more questionable when one looks at the fierce political struggles that underlie their doctrinal disputations. That certainly includes the Jonangpas, whom the Gelukpas all-but-annihilated. How lovely that the Virtuous Ones were willing to prevent the degeneration of the samaya by force.

As far as I'm concerned, one man's degeneration is another man's illumination.

Hi Mark

Nice to hear from you. :)

> Although this is true, it hardly seems relevant.

It seems relevent to me, in that there may be a dharma gate there. And in my mind there is a question to be considered, whether or not the mystical experience occassioned by the use of some psychoactives has any bearing on samadhi, dhyana, sunyata, et cetera. All I am saying is that I think this is a question worth exploring, and I think there is an impulse among many Tibetan monastics to dismiss it out-of-hand, on the basis of the prohibition against intoxication. Maybe I'm going too far in using terms like "orthodox".

I know many explorers of altered states of consciousness who are none the worse for their journeying - quite the contrary. So, again, for me the question is open - what is the value of these things for practice? Maybe there is none.

But this goes well beyond my original query. So far I have not found any clear indication that the use of psychoactives has ever been a part of Tibetan religious culture. If I find anything unambiguous I'll report back. :)

>Some monastics and even
some Ngakpas can be "hard line." Its not maybe characteristic of the Nyingma,
we're generally a permissive lot, but its certainly there. There's also a strong
tradition of rigorous academics, epistemology and debate. And "my lama said so"
was never enough-- it always had to be bourn out by experience.

Mark - it is a scholar you are familiar with. Out of respect and the fact that this is the internet and such things can be easily Googled AND misinterpreted, I am not naming him. He's well known and isn't a monastic.

At the age of 19, I almost killed myself on an overdose of psychoactives. I did inconceivable harm to my body. I had the experience of being attacked by demons, being possessed by a demon (at which point I threw all the furniture from end to end of my apartment), and then being shot out of my body and going to hell. I thought I was dead and would never come back, ever.

When I (amazingly!) woke up, two-thirds of my body was covered by sores. I felt like I had destroyed a good part of my brain. I could sense the brain damage, that is, with the two-thirds left of it.

Later in my life I have had to deal with significant mental health issues, such as bipolar depression. There is no doubt that the damage I did to my nervous system accounts for this damage.

The damage that I did to my spiritual energy centers and energy systems has been a constant weight, pulling down my spiritual growth. Only after 25 years of spiritual practice (20 years of which has been buddhist), I only now am beginning to feel spiritually, mentally, emotionally and physically healed from this psychoactive damage.

Taking psychoactives was the biggest mistake of my life!!, accruing horrible, horrible karma. I am lucky that I came back to my human body. I am lucky that the dharma and the dharmakaya has given me a second chance. I am lucky not to be one of the walking dead, a hungry ghost in a lingering human form.

Acclaimed addictionist Drew Pinske, MD, told me that taking psychoactives is like repeatedly stabbing your brain with an icepick.

I grew up here in California in the 60s and 70s. I have never seen drug abuse lead to enlightenment. Drug abuse leads to Mara consciousness.

I pray that this message may benefit all sentient beings and help keep human beings from using recreational drugs, including alcohol (which is a recreational drug, and has no benefits that cannot be better met through herbs and medicinal drugs). Being an ex-pothead, I also advise dharma practitioners against using marijuana.

In my Nyingma sangha, the use or possession of nicotine products is specifically prohibited.

I come off as extreme, but I have done almost every "recreational" drug, and everyone of them have stunted my path to enlightenment. I don't have the perfect solution for dharma practitioners. But I do say, why play with fire?, when enlightenment never comes from the use of these poisons? More suffering comes from the use of recreational drugs than through almost any other human activity, except war. Violence, crime, accidents, broken families all have roots in drug abuse. The amount of suffering spans the length and breadth of samsara and time.

All sentient beings are impacted negatively by the use of recreational drugs. What case can be made to promote or justify one of the greatest causes of suffering?

PS: Alcohol is used in some ceremonies of which I am a part. Instead of drinking the small amounts I am given, I simply abstain. For example, when a small portion is poured in my cupped hand, I lift the liquid up to my crown, pour the tiny amount onto my head, where it soon dries out on my scalp. This is perfectly accepted and welcomed and respected.

I wish there was no consumption of alcohol or meat in my sangha, period. But that is the prejudice of a man who has done all of these things with gusto. I'm as guilty as a reformed hooker. It's not my place to judge, even though I do. Judging others is something I am always praying to be purified of.

I have indulged in ranting because I wish I could spare others the kind of damage I have done to myself. May this vulgar display be offered as proof of my emotional poisons. May my karma and obscurations (and those of all) be exhausted in the inexhaustible compassion and bodhichitta of the buddhas! May this use of time and digital space benefit all living beings!

No worries..perhaps slightly...yet I have this thing about cutting through misconceptions.

Likewise, I openly acknowledge my Nyingma background--
especially the Dudjom Ter, the Mindrolling and Palyul traditions --
and don't normally say who my root lama is. This is a Rime site.
I know a good bit from the other schools. I encourage accuracy.

So who are the Nyingma? Odd person out. We have a unique
presentation of nine vehicles which emphasizes tantra.
We are a heterogenous bunch. We are not politically monolithic:
there never was untill the recent exile, a "supreme head", rather
we gave equal respect to the heas of the six mother monastaries
(half of which were headed by yogis). We have a separate tradition
of ordained yogis and hermits.

We don't assume that everyone starts at the beginning of the path,
or that the scholar path is suitable for most. Beyond "general
Mahayana Buddhism" practices such as tong len and lo jong
the main practice is Ngondro, even if one has completed one.
Some Nyingma practitioners have completed as many as 10
or 15 cycles of Ngondro. People on a Linneage Holder track will
tend to emphasize the core yidams of their tradition, typically
Vajrakilaya, the 8 Kagyed, or the 100 Shitro deities. Though
associated with Nyingmapas, these deities are practiced in
the other schools too. Dzogchen is specific to us but practiced
by others. There are three systems of Dzogchen. There's a great
tradition of monastacism and scholarship, but we tend to emphasize
practice.

We're generally flexible, but some of us are a bit stuffy! :-)

Barnaby,

Thank you for your post and your explaination.

> By "orthodox" I mean that the dominant hermeneutic impulse is to preserve the authentic tradition as handed down, without change or modification.

Keeping specific to our debate - which you and I both have tried to do throughout this thread - thus the heavy focus on Nyingmapa - the hidden teachings tradition is there to give a teaching just @ the right moment in time so that things can change, or be modified but only when the timing is perfect, the gTerton is perfect, and foregoing any obstacles. The URL you had posted led to one such of these hidden teachings. I had originally assumed you were aware of that. It is a wondrous thing.

Best wishes,

C