Faith and Buddhism

topic posted Tue, May 13, 2008 - 12:59 PM by  350ppm
I understand Buddhism to be devoid of western notions of faith; that even in "concepts" they are held tentatively as concepts with limited incomplete utility to understanding the totality of reality.

I understand Buddhism to advocate belief but to the extent that one finds them as self-evident truth in one's practice.. that nothing should be accepted by faith.

Pehaps this is a blanket generalization.

Would you be willing to share your understanding on Buddhism and how faith, in the western sense, plays into it?

there is a western viewpoint that buddhist rely on faith to believe in reincarnation, for example. But it's my understaning that faith has nothing to do with believing in reincarnation. what do you think?
posted by:
350ppm
SF Bay Area
  • Re: Faith and Buddhism

    Tue, May 13, 2008 - 2:32 PM
    Faith should be logical, sensible and based to some
    extent on experience. We do not accept blind-faith as
    valid. Rather there are criteria for what is trustworthy
    according to Buddhist Scriture.

    Look at the subject of vaild cognition in the texts on
    Buddhist epistemology and dialectic. In essence
    we accept both deduction and induction in the
    absence of direct perception. Valid and stable
    is both nonconceptual and incontrovertable.

    Also try on this definition of faith: trust. We generally
    trust our eyes, even though sometimes there are
    optical illusions; likewise we assume western science
    is valid even though we know that materialism doesn't
    explain everything. So is the testimony of Lord Buddha
    and his disciples valid? Generally speaking, with regard to
    Buddhist subjects yes. But we don't use sutras to build rockets!

    Lama Yeshe pointed out many years ago that everybody believes
    in something, many things. "Non-believers" often have more opinions
    than believers. Sincere practitioners, however are open-minded and
    not completely convinced in their culturally conditioned assumptions.
    Faith, then serves as a vehicle to undermine our self-evident rationales.

    Does this make sense? Karma, for example, may be a hidden phenomenon,
    but we can trust the rationality of it and base our life on faith in it. Karma
    is actually a more rational view than a creator-god, or nihilism. Either
    God or Nihililism may cause us to do the direct opposite of "cause hapiness
    for self and other."

    So we need reasons to believe, we need belief when reason is insufficient
    to keep us going, and we need experience to stengthen both. Make sense?
  • Re: Faith and Buddhism

    Wed, May 14, 2008 - 9:56 PM
    Faith is very much a part of Buddhism. Usually it is said there are 3 kinds: vivid faith, eager faith and confident faith, in "Words of My Perfect Teacher," or trusting faith, longing faith and clear faith, in the words of "Jewel Ornament of Liberation."

    I am sure if you did a websearch you could find as much as you want to know.


    "Blind faith" isn't really addressed in Tibetan Buddhism. While it is usually said that it is better to have well-informed bases for one's beliefs, an uninformed belief is better than none at all,
    • Re: Faith and Buddhism

      Wed, May 14, 2008 - 11:02 PM
      Quite true.

      And I will add that His Holiness Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
      said that faith in an Eternalistic view such as a god is less harmful
      than faith in a Nihilistic view such as materialism.

      Fact is that everybody does have faith in something as pointed out above.
      Question is whether faith is beneficial or not, whether a particular faith is
      justified, whether faith is in an unmistaken path.

      "Trust," as I have proposed it, would be predicated on some kind of experience.
      For example mutual trust between root-guru and disciple is based on long
      time acquaintance, practicing together, knowing each other's temperment, etc.
  • Re: Faith and Buddhism

    Wed, May 14, 2008 - 9:59 PM
    <<< understand Buddhism to advocate belief but to the extent that one finds them as self-evident truth in one's practice.. that nothing should be accepted by faith. >>>

    This is a misunderstanding that is not unusual in the west, and it often has its basis in a misreading of the Kalama Sutra. If you read it carefully, you will see that the Buddha was advising those who are evaluating a teacher and teachings they have come across to initially test and evaluate. After one has accepted him or her as one's teacher, it is a different story. Bikkhu Bodhi has an online essay that is very helpful in coming to a proper understanding of this Sutra.
  • Re: Faith and Buddhism

    Thu, May 15, 2008 - 11:38 PM

    One the greatest scholar on madhyamika has said:
    “All the formal teachings and practices are there for one thing alone:
    to give us faith.”

    The Very Venerable Kechen Thrangu Rinpoche
  • Re: Faith and Buddhism

    Tue, May 20, 2008 - 5:53 PM
    Faith has been helpful for me as an initial way of working with a concept such as karma, you pretty much have to take it on faith at first given that its a hidden phenomena but if you integrate the teachings on cause and effect into your life you begin to see change so experience with the teachings basically validates the faith. If my experience with something I had faith in did not support that faith I would eventually discard it.
    The other thing I often wonder about is whether faith represents a deeper level of knowing. For example I have faith in the teachings on emptiness even though I have not yet realized it experientially. I've often wondered why it was so easy for me to develop faith in some of these teachings, whether it is because a deeper part of me senses their truth.
    • Re: Faith and Buddhism

      Tue, May 20, 2008 - 6:04 PM
      My teacher says that faith is most important in establishing
      a genuine spiritual view. For example, faith that one truly
      posesses Buddha Nature. If one doesn't have inherent
      wisdom qualities external faith won't make a difference--
      since there's no connection to you. But, faith that Buddha
      Nature is pervasive make it possible to experience it.
      • Re: Faith and Buddhism

        Sat, May 24, 2008 - 6:36 PM
        Roshi Philip Kapleau's book The Three Pillars of Zen talks about "great faith" being one of the 3 pillars. But, I disagree that ones needs faith.

        In Mark's last post he said that his teacher says that "faith that Buddha Nature is pervasive make it possible to experience it." I disagree with that too.

        Faith is the hope that some concept or Reality is "true". It is an empty hope into the possibility of what might be Real.

        Regardless of whether you have faith that Buddha Nature is true or is not true does not matter.

        Instead, one of Roshi Kapleu's 2 other pillars is "great determination". IMHO, *this* is what counts. If you have the determination to do something and you see it to it's end with everything that you have, then it does not matter how much or how little faith you have. At some point the goal that you are seeking will reveal itself and your confirmation over what everyone else is having faith in will now be your Reality.

        This gets into a completely different question of knowing whether you have *enough* great determination, but that is a question for a whole other thread :)
        • Re: Faith and Buddhism

          Sat, May 24, 2008 - 8:35 PM
          Hi Justin,

          Well you may be right, but what is the basis of determination?
          I'd say that strong determination is one definition of "faith,"
          not a traditional definition, but a functional one. Fierce commitment,
          resolve and energetic practice is absolutely necessary if you're
          trying to undermine aeons of ignorace-habit, attraction-habit, and
          aversion-habit.

          If you hold that sentient being and Buddha are distinct, there
          is no basis for becoming Buddha. Becoming Buddha is predicated
          upon having Buddha Nature. But Buddha Nature is hidden to sentient
          beings according to the Uttaratantrashastra in 9 different ways. So
          what will drive you to practice, on the basis of posessing Buddha Nature?
          Logic is one basis, experience is another, but devotion by any name is
          required at times the other two elements fail. Likewise, devotion alone
          is quite weak, especially if it lacks understanding.

          Further, devotion is a mechanism for establishing intuition between
          guru and disciple. Such intuition is the basis for mind-to-mind transmission.
          My teacher also states that realization is contageous. You become like
          your teacher and peer group.

          In any case, the Roshi's statement (as good as it may be) will not satisfy
          Tibetan scriptural criteria, unless you're an "American Buddhist," which in
          traditional Tibetan Buddhist communities is a perjorative term.
          • Re: Faith and Buddhism

            Sun, May 25, 2008 - 2:27 PM
            Good response Mark. You brought up the subject of devotion which is certainly interrelated with having faith and we get into a whole new shift in direction by speaking of devotion.

            I very much liked what you said here:

            "Further, devotion is a mechanism for establishing intuition between
            guru and disciple. Such intuition is the basis for mind-to-mind transmission.
            My teacher also states that realization is contageous. You become like
            your teacher and peer group."

            You also said:

            "But Buddha Nature is hidden to sentient
            beings according to the Uttaratantrashastra in 9 different ways. So
            what will drive you to practice, on the basis of posessing Buddha Nature?"

            This is a good question! Why DO people practice? For the people who maintain a practice and are not driven by superficial reasons to externally show that they are religious, there are for sure a multitude of reasons...
            • Reasons for Practice

              Sun, May 25, 2008 - 7:13 PM
              Ok, so who wants to jump in?

              Nagarjuna offers several reasons, Asanga too. Also, there's
              the lam-rim texts that speak of people having varying scopes
              of intent.

              In a nutshell, you can practice for a better life now, next life time,
              to benefit others, to exhaust personal suffering, or to become an
              Omniscient Buddha for the sake of infinite beings.

              Who can write from Rangzompa, Atisha, Gampopa,
              Sakya Pandita, Longchenpa or Tsongkapa?
              • Re: Reasons for Practice

                Wed, May 28, 2008 - 11:05 AM
                "Why DO people practice? "

                For fun? And maybe some people recite Gyaltsen Tsemo sutra
                to get nasty girlfriend?

                erm... I meant wrathful.

                reasons can vary from practioner to practioner.
                There arent many who can practice Crazy wisdom (needless to say, cope with it!),
                pull up robes or meditate in cave for twelve years.

                Faith is crucial, especially in crazy wisdom. Otherwise you are completly out of league
                when Lama starts to create black clouds and asks suddenly "what are you doing?".
                With these methods Lama can give sudden glimpses of enlightment,
                for first time in life awareness starts to grow about passing moments of every day life.

                scriptures point out that there isnt any need for practice when you have achieved
                the stage of "one taste". Some practices are desinged to use Ego (or karma) as a vehicle
                instead of an obstacle. Good example would be Tonglen
                • Re: Reasons for Practice

                  Wed, May 28, 2008 - 10:55 PM
                  Yeshe said:

                  > "And maybe some people recite Gyaltsen Tsemo sutra
                  to get nasty (erm... I meant wrathful) girlfriend"

                  Dude, you're either crazy, masochistic or both ! :-)
                  Gyaltsen Tsemo is often used to resolve lawsuits.
                  Expecting for a divorce before you even begin?

                  I'm joking, but that would be a valid reason. Some people
                  do want to overcome particular obstacles such as having
                  a relationship or career that works. And there are practices
                  that Lord Buddha prescribed for those people and situations.
                  In Lam-rim texts that's called small scope.

                  With regard to that last point, it is correct that some Lamas
                  have completed their practice. Their teachers say: "You're
                  done-- no more need to practice." And such Lamas usually
                  respond something like: "Yes, Rinpoche" and keep on practicing.
                  It seems that those who most need practice are least willing,
                  and those who need practice the least, practice the most.

                  I read recently that His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche (who really
                  didn't need any practice) would still pray fervently every day
                  for several hours for the complete accomplishment of anybody
                  connected to him, by as little as hearing his name, or seeing him.
                  Isn't that an example for practitioners like us?
              • Re: Reasons for Practice

                Wed, May 28, 2008 - 8:00 PM
                Even many highly realized present day masters continue to practice everyday.

                I think the question should be turned around...

                why not practice?
    • Re: Faith and Buddhism

      Wed, May 28, 2008 - 11:01 PM
      Returning to this idea that Faith is a kind of gnosis,
      way of knowing, or point of access to the nonconceptual
      domain of experience...

      There's the well known parable of the dogs tooth.

      An elderly lady asked her son to bring her a relic of the Buddha
      on one of his many trips to India. Each time he forgot. Eventually
      he gave her a dog's tooth out of desperation. His mother put
      it on her shrine and venerated it daily, in the end attaining
      rainbow body. So clearly, it wasn't the tooth that was the cause
      of the realization. The story is about view, which I suppose in this
      context could also be called devotion or faith.
      • Re: Faith and Buddhism

        Fri, June 6, 2008 - 2:34 PM
        When I think of faith I think of doubt which can be classified into two types; deluded doubt which is based on wrong view, and doubt that can actually lead to wisdom and thus increase our faith. The latter is very important because it forms the basis for our experience and if we are mindful, leads us down the path of perfecting our wisdom. In this way we come to see our own Buddha nature clearly. For instance, when I first heard about emanations it seemed like crazy talk, but I was curious and so I remained open to the idea. Then when I experienced one myself - beyond a shadow of a doubt - it increased my faith in the Mahayana path and deepened my practice immeasurably. As my root guru says; I crazy, now I want you be crazy too!
        • Re: Faith and Buddhism

          Sat, June 7, 2008 - 7:22 AM
          Excellent point !

          There's also habitual neurotic doubt
          and helpful reasonable doubt. What's the
          difference? The former is dogmatic, the latter
          is open.

Recent topics in "Tibetan Buddhism"

Topic Author Replies Last Post
The Karmapa's Visit to America vagabond 53 Yesterday, 2:40 PM
Committing to a lineage? Devon 15 June 30, 2008
Sanskrit vs. Tibetan mantras Padma 14 June 30, 2008
Dharma quote Tashi 118 June 29, 2008