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I have come to realize that i might just benefit greatly, and perhaps others as well, if there where some resources on the sexual ethics of Buddhist.
Ideally, i would like to read exemplified case studies on the matter.
What I have read thus far, has been rather general and i will like to gain insights into how it works for some adepts.
Thank you kindly...
Ideally, i would like to read exemplified case studies on the matter.
What I have read thus far, has been rather general and i will like to gain insights into how it works for some adepts.
Thank you kindly...
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Sun, September 20, 2009 - 7:40 PMThis was what I was taught:
No sexual misconduct= no cheating, must have consent(no rape), don't try sex with monk or nun or someone about to take vows or on a retreat, or a minor , or someone under protection or already engaged. Interestingly consentual homosexual relationships and prostitution is okay. Interestingly masturbation and oral sex not okay. darn.
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Sun, September 20, 2009 - 10:28 PMI'd guess some of the others here will come up w/ more that have particulars and maybe life examples but for a Theravadin overview, Rahula's 'What the Buddha Taught' gives a good glimpse, as does Patrul Rimpoche's 'The Words of My Perfect Teacher' from a (Nyingma) Vajrayana perspective. I've heard of various books that give more details and experiences but haven't read many of them or just where I read what is hazy now so I can't comment, aside from Gedun Chopel's sort-of Tibetan version of the Kama Sutra titled "Tibetan Arts of Love' which generally covers more the aspects of the act(s) than the ethics, although he does have a very good chapter titled 'Ethic of Love' which goes into some detail. It would be best to be forwarned is he quite the iconclast and many of his views would not be considered mainstream.
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Mon, September 21, 2009 - 9:52 AM>Interestingly masturbation and oral sex not okay.
This is something I've always regarded as extremely dubious. Especially in light of the 'dod pa'i bstan bcos and las kyi phyag rgya texts I've read.
But I guess they say consistency is the hobgoblin of little mind ;-)
Warm Regards
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Mon, September 21, 2009 - 9:35 AMAct with love. Harm no one. Common sense.
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Mon, September 21, 2009 - 11:10 AM"Act with love. Harm no one..."
Unless of course the harming is consensual. ;) -
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Mon, September 21, 2009 - 11:52 AMIf the harming is consensual it isn't harm?
Seems we like to get hung up on words. Texts, etc. It's all guidance.
Don't forget the common sense part! lol -
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Tue, September 22, 2009 - 12:21 AMI'll credit the benevolence of my fellow tribe members rather than my own merit for the fact that I haven't met with the verbal business end of a trigu or phurba for my above statement. Chopel's book would be more properly translated as 'Treatise on Passion'. The Snow Lion translation by Jeffrey Hopkins is titled 'Tibetan Arts of Love'. The latter has several chapters of introduction, one of which is 'Ethic of Love' where Hopkins quotes and elaborates on some of Chopel's writings. He closes this chapter with basically saying the concern for other is at the heart of Chopel's love ethic, which is I think a bit shy of the Tantric (at least some if not all types at some level, from what little I've seen, Buddhist and otherwise) view of the (material or immaterial) consort as deity.
Perhaps as Tantra started (many would say in Hinduism) with transforming and sublimatiing tabooed action and substance (the five m's, etc., ...) so some later Tantric texts may suggest acts which go beyond the normal prohibitions of more mainstream Tantrism of the day for the same reason.
Maybe I should quit while I'm still ahead (and want to keep one) or at least not too far in the behind ; ( . I can see why some of a more abnegationist bent might view some of the above as a snowball of heresy- sliding, rolling and growing down a slippery slope.
Is there a Tibetan word for that kind of snow, I wonder ... ? -
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Tue, September 22, 2009 - 5:15 AMHi Dionysus,
You didn't sound too heretical to me. As to the idea that antinomian or heteropraxic conduct (vamacara) being at the root of certain acts, it seems like a reasonable inference to me. However, simple pragmatic reasons also come into play relating to recommendations for what to do if a qualified consort isn't available. Given the context of strict brahmacarya (tshang par spyod pa) the term masturbation is probably inaccurate anyway. -
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Tue, September 22, 2009 - 5:18 AMPS snow is often called kha ba and Tibet is called kha ba can (often translated as "land of snows")
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Tue, September 22, 2009 - 12:33 PMThanks for the details, Ryan. The strict Buddhist version of bramacharya is I think certainly interesting in regards to sexual conduct, in case you're ever inspired to elaborate.
Whether or not Tantric Buddhism arose separately from or before Hindu Tantrism (as for example w/ Sakyamuni's legendary teaching to a King Indrabodhi), the fact seems to remain that it involved transmuting previously forbidden (depending on for whom) or at least generally accepted as mundane if not defiling acts of sex, meat eating and wine drinking into spiritual practice. From my admittedly narrow perspective, it seems that when the teaching was in times and places where meat eating was more normal, then the use of more taboo meats such as elephant, etc., ... became part of the ceremony. I'd venture that was partly in order to help people step beyond their ordinary limited perspectives. This I'm guessing is one of many reasons some acts are kept secret. Of course the herd of society would frown on them and possibly take harmful action if it were allowed to judge them from it's prejudiced perspective, but keeping them secret also it would seem serves the function of keeping them more powerful in terms of not being vulgarized by frequest public usage. Exceptions are of course particularly skillful and wise teachers like Guru Rimpoche or even Drugpa Kunley who could convert (the deserving viewers) by their displays of conversion (of taboo deeds).
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Tue, September 22, 2009 - 4:38 PMThe brahmacarya deals mainly with the term "lust" but can also be described as "objectification". In that sense if you fantasize about another while masturbating, you then "objectify" them in your delusions or fantasies without them having any choice in the matter. That could be considered a downfall. -
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Tue, September 22, 2009 - 11:11 PMThat seems reasonable if the fantasy is real person. What about a fantasy with a fantasy? Or better yet no thoughts Is that okay if skillfully done? And what is wrong with oral sex if it is with mutual consent and you are not breaking any laws? I asked a monk this and he couldn't answer.
I been married like seventeen years and it would be helpful to know this stuff so I am not breaking any vows.
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 8:30 AMYou mean you took vows not to have oral sex? What were you thinking?!
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 9:02 AMfantasy with a fantasy sounds pretty harmless to others I would think....but no thoughts at all could be careless during certain activities...
as far as oral sex...I dont know ....but I like embrace's reply. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 9:46 AMYeah she is great at being funny, I only took refuge two and a half years ago. I found out about these precepts afterwards while I was drinking beer and a burning a mummy-finger with the top tulku at the shrine. Tulku didn't know reasons. I am guilty of all of these things in past. I might want to get wild sometime in future. Fantasy with fantasy would probably not be good either, but Milarepa saw a vision of thousands of vaginas and he inserted his vajra (penis) in ALL of them.... not sure if he ejaculated though.
Can someone explain "vajroli" which is a sucking of fluids (alcohol, butter, oils) through penis sphincter to kill sperm for more brain-power? -
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 10:42 AMNot that anyone is interested in my opinion, but here it is anyway.
IMO, oral sex is a cultural issue not an ethical or moral issue.
In India during the Pala period, oral-sex was not regarded as overly improper and I'm not aware of any formal proscriptions in the Indic Vajrayana literature. In Tibet, oral sex is seen as somewhat improper and/or vulgar. There seems to be a significant difference between the two cultures regarding attitudes on that issue.
The Kalacakra literature explicitly acknowledges the cultural-relativity that exists regarding sexual mores. It is quite specific regarding the fact that different nations have different views and strongly advises that everyone (except perhaps the most advanced yogins) to adhere to the sexual norms of the country the live in.
So my take is that oral-sex might very well be a no-no for Tibetans but is not necessarily so for people of other counties.
Regarding Vajroli-mudra, it is called thur ma'i phyag rgya in Tibetan and is primarily a training aid used to cultivate the ability to raise the vayus and bindu up through the nadis (especially the avadhuti). That is probably as much as can be said in a public forum. Sorry if that isn't especially helpful.
Warm Regards,
Ryan -
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 11:56 AMThat's interesting in itself - I didn't know the Tibetans had a tradition of vajroli.
Re sexual ethics, shouldn't it all boil down to right intent rather than morality anyway from a non-culturally/geographically biased Buddhist perspective? -
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 12:16 PM>That's interesting in itself - I didn't know the Tibetans had a tradition of vajroli.
There is actually very -very- little in the hatha-yoga corpus that isn't also found in Tibetan yogic traditions. This includes most of the really strange stuff like vajroli, khecari, etc. There is a lot of secrecy around Tibetan yoga, and I had been told (and had read) that many methods were the exclusive domain of Vajrayana. Then I bought a copy of hathayogapradipika and boy was I shocked! I couldn't believe you could buy a book with all kinds of super-secret methods at the local book-store.
That caused a more than a little cognitive dissonance for a few months... ;-)
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 2:06 PM"IMO, oral sex is a cultural issue not an ethical or moral issue."
Whew! lol
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Re: Buddhist sexual ethics
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 3:04 PM"Not that anyone is interested in my opinion, but here it is anyway. "
Just so you know, I will always be interested in your opinion, Ryan. : )
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Is sexuality openly talked about in Shangha?
Wed, September 23, 2009 - 3:28 PMI'm curious to know to what extent is sexuality talked about openly within the Tibetan community, or specifically the teachings..
Are there "courses" devoted to the subject?
Is there notions of modesty and propriety about bringing the subject up in public or semi public?
I notice that within this talk, there is glipse of openness about, which I welcome..
I'm just curious of to what level of integration and openess the subject of sex is..
Is it regarded as taboo in a way?
Personaly, I wished it would have the same level of neutrality as cooking, meditating.. yoga.. but i intuit that it may not be that way at all.
thanks.. -
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Re: Is sexuality openly talked about in Shangha?
Fri, September 25, 2009 - 3:59 PMMy experience is no. As a matter of fact I was scolded for saying the word "ballsack" by the gay harvard scholar monk in shrineroom. And it was very funny. He was still mad at me and said the word "sh*t" later in shrineroom during teaching! It was the most exciting teaching he gave in over two years! As with most religions sex talk is taboo in tibetan buddhism where monks are "supposedly" abstinent. Solo practices and abstinence facade that ends up with many accusations of unfair deviant behaviors and rapes and many consorts. So if you do find sangha that is open to discussions you are truly blessed because dharma IS EVERYTHING !!!
Om
Ah
Hung -
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Re: Is sexuality openly talked about in Sangha?
Fri, September 25, 2009 - 9:20 PMGood monks are not experiential in sexual matters or with women and they can't relate to either terribly well unfortunately. Most tibetan teachers are monks from childhood. -
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Re: Is sexuality openly talked about in Sangha?
Sat, September 26, 2009 - 7:47 AMI guess my sangha has been a little more open than others. For several years the grounds-keepers were a married female couple. Every time any of the new monks came for a visit, they would inevitably ask--how do two women do it with each other? I guess for most Tibetans in Tibet, once a year bathing was pretty normal, so oral sex never caught on. Even imagining the sexual possibilities was hard for the monks. It was hilarious watching people miming licking to explain things. The monks overall seemed to have a great sense of humor about the whole thing. As for talking about the dos and don'ts, I think Rinpoche wants people to practice Dharma and doesn't want to exclude them because of sexual preferences. If you are close to him and he can see that you are getting yourself hung-up on sexual desires and it distracts you from the Dharma, he will talk to you personally and tell you to stop what he thinks is a problem. He did that with a close friend of mine. -
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Re: Is sexuality openly talked about in Sangha?
Sat, September 26, 2009 - 9:40 AM>I guess for most Tibetans in Tibet, once a year bathing was pretty normal, so oral sex never caught on
Eew! That's a mental image I didn't need. ;-) -
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Re: Is sexuality openly talked about in Sangha?
Sat, September 26, 2009 - 10:30 AMone a year bathing?
I would think that is very good for water resource management.
I wonder what is there method of cleaning.. do they use oils on their hair like Indians?
I heard that Lama Yeshe was quite curious of the most intimate details of gays and lesbians when he visited san francisco; that he wanted to get a sense of the life of people.. so he would go to night clubs even (robe and sandals) and mingle.
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Re: Is sexuality openly talked about in Sangha?
Sat, September 26, 2009 - 9:48 AMI think Nyonpa and Sarah both bring up an interesting point. Whether or not discussion is relatively open or closed, humorous or serious, celibates are unlikely to completely get where non-monastics are coming from and vice versa. On the other hand, we're all just people and at the root more alike than dissimilar. -
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Middle way is best way!
Sat, September 26, 2009 - 4:34 PMMiddle way is best way!
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