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In a recent thread here Saraha was mentioned a number of times.
I thought I'd start a thread to talk about Saraha and the cayragiti, vajragiti, and dohas of this and other siddhas. I hope others will join me.
On a somewhat related note, does anyone have any songs of prose writings from Jalandaripa? Anything in English or Tibetan would be fantastic, but really I'd appreciate anything regardless of language.
Warm Regards,
Ryan
I thought I'd start a thread to talk about Saraha and the cayragiti, vajragiti, and dohas of this and other siddhas. I hope others will join me.
On a somewhat related note, does anyone have any songs of prose writings from Jalandaripa? Anything in English or Tibetan would be fantastic, but really I'd appreciate anything regardless of language.
Warm Regards,
Ryan
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Sun, August 2, 2009 - 1:35 PMHow wonderful!
I know very little of Saraha's dohas,
except as he is referenced in the Chod
linneage and other Mahamudra sources.
Of course, the 84 Mahasiddhas are legenday,
but for those of us who have limited knowledge
of Sanskrit or Tibetan-- their teachings are not
well known. Few of our Lamas are teaching from
these Ancient sources. But, the transmission-
linneage still exists.
I do know that Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral
Yeshe Dorje, Guru Rinpoche in person
during most of the 20th century-- was
known as an incranation of Sarahapa.
I'm eager to see what people share. -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Sun, August 2, 2009 - 1:56 PMThe Royal Song Of Saraha
I bow down to noble Manjushri
I bow down to Him who has conquered the finite.
1
As calm water lashed by wind
Turns into waves and rollers,
So the king thinks of Saraha
In many ways, although one man.
2
To a fool who squints
One lamp is as two;
Where seen and seer are not two, ah! the mind
Works on the thingness of them both.
3
Though the house-lamps have been lit,
The blind live on in the dark.
Though spontaneity is all-encompassing and close,
To the deluded it remains always far away.
4
Though there may be many rivers, they are one in the sea,
Though there may be many lies, one truth will conquer all.
When one sun appears, the dark
However deep will vanish.
5
As a cloud that rises from the sea
Absorbing rain the earth embraces,
So, like the sky, the sea remains
Without increasing or decreasing.
6
So from spontaneity that's unique,
Replete with the Buddha's perfections,
Are all sentient beings born and in it come
To rest. But it is neither concrete nor abstract.
7
They walk other paths and so forsake true bliss,
Seeking the delights that stimulants produce.
The honey in their mouths and to them so near
Will vanish if at once they do not drink it.
8
Beasts do not understand the world
To be a sorry place. Not so the wise
Who the heavenly nectar drink
While beasts hunger for the sensual.
9
To a fly that likes the smell of putrid
Meat the fragrance of sandalwood is foul.
Beings who discard Nirvana
Covet coarse Samsara's realm.
10
An ox's footprints filled with water
Will soon dry up; so with a mind that's firm
But full of qualities that are not perfect;
These imperfections will in time dry up.
11
Like salt sea water that turns
Sweet when drunk up by the clouds,
So a firm mind that works for others turns
The poison of sense-objects into nectar.
12
If ineffable, never is one unsatisfied,
If unimaginable, it must be bliss itself.
Though from a cloud one fears the thunderclap,
The crops ripen when from it pours the rain.
13
It is in the beginning, in the middle, and
The end; yet end and beginning are nowhere else.
All those with minds deluded by interpretative thoughts are in
Two minds and so discuss nothingness and compassion as two things.
14
Bees know that in flowers
Honey can be found.
That Samsara and Nirvana are not two
How will the deluded ever understand?
15
When the deluded in a mirror look
They see a face, not a reflection.
So the mind that has truth denied
Relies on that which is not true.
16
Though the fragrance of a flower cannot be touched,
'Tis all pervasive and at once perceptible.
So by unpatterned being-in-itself
Recognize the round of mystic circles.
17
When in winter still water by the wind is stirred,
It takes as ice the shape and texture of a rock.
When the deluded are disturbed by interpretative thoughts,
That which is as yet unpatterned turns very hard and solid.
18
Mind immaculate in its very being can never be
Polluted by Samsara's or Nirvana's impurities.
A precious jewel deep in mud
Will not shine, though it has luster.
19
Knowledge shines not in the dark, but when the darkness
Is illumined, suffering disappears at once.
Shoots grow from the seed
And leaves from the shoots.
20
He who thinks of the mind in terms of one
Or many casts away the light and enters the world.
Into a raging fire he walks with open eyes--
Who could be more deserving of compassion?
21
For the delights of kissing the deluded crave
Declaring it to be the ultimately real--
Like a man who leaves his house and standing at the door
Asks a woman for reports of sensual delights.
22
The stirring of biotic forces in the house of nothingness
Has given artificial rise to pleasures in so many ways.
Such yogis from affliction faint for they have fallen
From celestial space, inveigled into vice.
23
As a Brahman, who with rice and butter
Makes a burnt offering in blazing fire
Creating a vessel for nectar from celestial space,
Takes this through wishful thinking as the ultimate.
24
Some people who have kindled the inner heat and raised it to the fontanelle
Stroke the uvula with the tongue in a sort of coition and confuse
That which fetters with what gives release,
In pride will call themselves yogis.
25
As higher awareness they teach what they experience
Within. What fetters them they will call liberation.
A glass trinket colored green to them is a priceless emerald;
Deluded, they know not a gem from what they think it should be.
26
They take copper to be gold. Bound by discursive thought
They think these thoughts to be ultimate reality.
They long for the pleasures experienced in dreams. They call
The perishable body-mind eternal bliss supreme.
27
By the symbol EVAM they think self-clearness is achieved,
By the different situations that demand four seals
They call what they have fancied spontaneity,
But this is looking at reflections in a mirror.
28
As under delusion's power a herd of deer will rush
For the water in a mirage which is not recognized,
So also the deluded quench not their thirst, are bound by chains
And find pleasure in them, saying that all is ultimately real.
29
Nonmemory is convention's truth
And mind which has become no-mind is ultimate truth.
This is fulfillment, this the highest good.
Friends, of this highest good become aware.
30
In nonmemory is mind absorbed; just this
Is emotionality perfect and pure.
It is unpolluted by the good or bad of worldliness
Like a lotus unaffected by the mud from which it grows.
31
Yet with certainty must all things be viewed as if they were a magic spell.
If without distinction you can accept or reject Samsara
Or Nirvana, steadfast is your mind, free from the shroud of darkness.
In you will be self-being, beyond thought and self-originated.
32
This world of appearance has from its radiant beginning
Never come to be; unpatterned it has discarded patterning.
As such it is continuous and unique meditation;
It is nonmentation, stainless contemplation, and nonmind.
33
Mind, intellect, and the formed contents of that mind are It,
So too are the world and all that seems from It to differ,
All things that can be sensed and the perceiver,
Also dullness, aversion, desire, and enlightenment.
34
Like a lamp that shines in the darkness of spiritual
Unknowing, It removes obscurations of a mind
As far as the fragmentations of intellect obtain.
Who can imagine the self-being of desirelessness?
35
There's nothing to be negated, nothing to be
Affirmed or grasped; for It can never be conceived.
By the fragmentations of the intellect are the deluded
Fettered; undivided and pure remains spontaneity.
36
If you question ultimacy with the postulates of the many and the one,
Oneness is not given, for by transcending knowledge are sentient beings freed.
The radiant is potency latent in the intellect, and this
Is shown to be meditation; unswerving mind is our true essence.
38
The buds of joy and pleasure
And the leaves of glory grow.
If nothing flows out anywhere
The bliss unspeakable will fruit.
39
What has been done and where and what in itself it will become
Is nothing; yet thereby it has been useful for this and that.
Whether passionate or not
The pattern is nothingness.
40
If I am like a pig that covets worldly mire
You must tell me what fault lies in a stainless mind.
By what does not affect one
How can one now be fettered?
English translation by Herbert V. Guenther.
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Sun, August 2, 2009 - 9:24 PMSarahapa was disciple of Vajragarbhanath an Indian disciple of Swayambhunath / Guru Rinpoche. He was arround late nith century. Saraha coats the teachings of "The Great Guru" in his songs. If you compare the lines with the text of Knowing The Mind by Guru Rinpoche (The Tibetan Book of Great Liberation, Evan-Wentz) and Saraha's poem that was discussed by Ryan in the checked out thread, you will surely find the likeness of teachings. Saraha meditated even in Vajrakila mountain which is Tashiding in Sikkim. His stone eat is still found in Sinon Gompa nearby Tashiding. So far his incarnations have been recognised as Drukpa Kungle, Chaktha Rinpoche and Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche.
Saraha is a perfect sahaja who saw everything in life as metaphor of the Inner Wisdom. He challenged all sorts of conditionings from the stand-point of Voidness. When Atisha was teaching the same song of Saraha in Tibet, Dongtonpa, his own lineage disciple stopped him teaching and it is said that Atisha was prohibited to teach Saraha openly in Tibet! Dongtonpa was the starter of Khadampa tradition and the guru of Chongkhapa. Chongkhapa's dsiciple the first Dalai Lama started Gelukpa school that was very careful about not promoting the sahaja teachings. Drukpa Kungle mocked Chongkhapa again and again from the ground of sahaja. This is why Drukpa Kungle and his teachings were banned for a long time in Tibet under Gelukpa rules. This may also be a reason for scarcity of Saraha's teachings in the exposed Tibetan teachings. Recently The Holy Madman, the book on Drukpa Kungle has been published.
Saraha in one of his dohas sings:
kaa-a nabadi khanti man kedual sadguru ba-ane dhara patabal
cheeya thira kari dharahu re naahi an upaye par-na jai.(no.38, Charyapada)
- Body is the boat, mind is the row, the teachings of The Sadguru is the sail;
cool your mind and get into rowing, there's no other way to go to 'the shore'.
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Mon, August 3, 2009 - 12:07 PMCould not find any Jalandaripa. Keith Dowman wrote a book that includes him and other mahasiddhas, just don't have it. I have something very nice from my first teacher that I grew up with from my parent's books. His name is Gurdjieff and some people say that he was same person Dorjieff who was chief debate partner of 13th dalai lama. In his fiction book, "Beelzebub's tales to his grandson" he writes of an ancient fragment of wisdom that was found and I have always loved it. I hope no one minds me posting it:
Love of conciousness evokes the same response
Love of feeling evokes the opposite
Love of body depends only on polarity and type
Hope of conciousness is strength
Hope of feeling is slavery
Hope of body is disease
Faith of consciousness is freedom
Faith of feeling is weakness
Faith of body is stupidity -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Wed, August 5, 2009 - 9:39 AM>Could not find any Jalandaripa.
Thanks for looking. Unfortunately I suspect that there isn't much to find. There are six works in the bstan ‘gyur, but that appears to be about it. Oddly, His disciple Kanhapa was a prolific author and we also have a large body of apabhramsa (Old Bengali) poetry attributed to him.
Jalandharipa and Kanhapa are so very interesting to me because the lie precisely at the intersection of the Kapalikas, Vajrayana, and the Natha-Sampradaya. There are stillyogic lineages with claimed descent from these masters in India, Nepal and Tibet. I was hoping that Kulavadhuta Satpurananda might know of some nath texts attributed to Kanhapa, or Jalandharipa since there are nath lineages that trace their origin to these siddhas.
Below are a few interesting links about the ancient sidda songs. The third and link is interesting as it discusses the carya-songs as a living performance tradition in Nepal. The fourth and fifth are youtube video of the sacred dance traditions related to these songs
buddhisttorrents.blogspot.com/200...html
vajrayana.faithweb.com/rich_text_3.html
www.dancemandal.com/
www.youtube.com/results
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 12:51 AMDear Ryan,
My paternal family comes from Kanhapa lineage of Mekhala-Kankhala or Vajrayogini sisters. Later Atisha was born in this family. These are my ancestors. From the family lineage of oral teachings I first discovered that Vajrayana and Natha sampradaya is the same school without any difference. The Natha sampradaya got divided into two sections :
1. Darshani Natha / Kanphattas or the Goraksha Nath sect which started after Gorakshapa was banished from the Aghora order for disrespecting Guru Matsyendranatha and Kanhapa without realising the ways of Aghories. This school later merged in 'Hinduism' (?).
2. Aghora Natha or the pure unbroken lineage of Swambhunatha (Padmasambhava) to Matsyendranath to Jalandhar Nath to Kanhanath and so on and so forth.
After the massacre of Buddhism by the Senas after the Pala dynasty was over, most of the Buddhist Tantrik texts were under the Brahminical secret possessions. The Charyagiti that has been discovered by Hapaprasad Shastri in 19th cen. is only a compilation of some pages of the Apabhramsa manuscript that he found from a Brahminical possession in Nepal. Still now, most of the people do not know that huge masses of palm-leaf manuscripts are just decomposing in Nepal royal library; I have myself seen in my field studies. They are even not allowed to go through or taken photo-copy of.
Only during the dharma rule of Baba Ramnath Aghori, my elder Vajra-brother and second lineage Guru of my Mahasamrajyavisheka, in Nepal, He helped Dujom Rinpoche and other Vajrayani masters to get some of the old Tantra manuscripts like Hevajra, Bhutadamara etc to get edited and published. Nepal's Hindu politics went against Him for declaring Natha sampradaya as Vajrayana, during the early rule of king Virendra Singh when he professed the king's death by his own son in future and left Nepal at the age of 217yrs and secretly settled down in Kolkata. He made me take an oath to recover the broken traditions through research in the field and that is what I am still carrying on. Later I worked with Indian Archeological survey and learned how to assert texts, their dating and adulterations. Whatever I speak in this tribe comes from my extensive field studies and researches in this field. You may not know that Ramnath Aghoribaba was even secret yoga Guru to Dujom Rinpoche. This information I collected from Chattral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche himself and some secret nagpa disciples of Dujom Rinpoche in Nepal. To recognise this reality of Vajrayana and Natha sampradaya to be the same, Chattral Rinpoche has installed Shiva lingams in his monasteries and hermitages.
That Guru Rinpoche is the father of both Vajrayana and Natha Sampradaya can be clearly seen in the first chapter called Guhyasiddhi, of the compiled text Guhya-ashtasiddhi-samgraha. The chapter is assigned to Padmavajrapada, another epithet of Padmasambhava. There He says that He has prajenited the order of Vajrayana and marked that it is inseparable from the Shaiva and Pashupat systems as the basic practice for both is Mahamudra. Both the Vajrayana and Nath schools follow the 84 siddha teachings with Buddha, Jina or Shiva as epithets of the same principles. In Tibet Vajrayana got stylized by Bonpo infiltrations. For that reason Lamaism got culturally separated from the main-stream Vajrayana that evolved and spread in India in historical times. Kapalika tradition is a fragmentation of the Niruttara Tantra practitioners. We have to remember that Vajrayana was the product of equanimity of the five Agamas, Jaina-Bouddha-Shaiva-Shakta-Vaishana. The Tibetan teachings of Swayambhunatha / Sadshiva / Padmasambhava flowing through the different styles of realisations and experiences of the 84 siddhas has taken 18 sub-sects of Darshanainathas while two schools od Aghoranathas are the Indian and Tibetan both traditions mentioned in lama Taranatha's accounts as the black-robes.The political dominations of the Darshaninath system over the Aghoris have been followed by Gorakhnatha's realisation limits in both Nepal and Gorakhpur Natha sanghas supported by the so-called Hindu systems. This is the reason that the old manuscripts under Brahminical holds are kept secret in Nepal, otherwise the false history of the Hindus regarding rise and fall of Vajrayana in India-Nepal Tantrik traditions will be exposed.
There are only few published dohas of Jalandharipa in Apabhramsa that you know. More than that I myself do not know. But lama Taranatha has accounted about Indian-Nepalese collections of Jalandhar Nath. May be in taranatha's time they were still available. In the intro of first Hevajra Tantra publication from Oxford University Press, similar information regarding the Nepal manuscripts have been given. We hope that if democracy does not turn to Cinese red-rule in Nepal we may still get the secreted texts saved out form the royal collection in future. For this a global campaign should come up.
After Ramnath Baba's parinirvana, the Nath order has been again under darkness of ignorance in matter of textual proof. Stories of Gorakhnath orders have become so mythycal that they have even crossed the limits of the TIbetan anti-historical stories. But to speak of those can be seen as a blasphemy in this tribe, so I refrain from a lot of research discrepancies out here.
Remember, once we debated about the discrepancies regarding Chinachara and Mahachinachara in another tread of a different tribe? Chinachara according to my research is the Tao influence and has been mentioned in only Rudrayamala in context to Lord Buddhas teaching to Bashishtha but Mahachinakrama has been mentioned in the texts of Indian Vajrayana or Natha Tantrik texts to ascertain the teachings of Swayambhunatha as well as Natha-siddhas of India in Tibet. Thus the texts showing the influence of Tao elements in Indian Tantra and Bon influences are not practically the same. But how much Tibetan Stylisation has been changed in later periods is clear in the obsolete practices of MahachinaTara or Ugratara in Tibetan traditions itself!
Adesh! -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 8:16 AMDear brother Kulavadhuta,
Thank you for sharing this. I am grateful!
Cliff in Cleveland
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 8:50 AMThis is extremely interesting.
I know that the XVI Karmapa spoke was a close
friend of Baba Muktananda and spoke of Kashmiri
Shaivism as "the southern linneage" compared
to Karma Kagyu's Chakrasamvara "northern"
tradition.
Also, I've mentioned elsewhere that a respected
Gelugpa Geshe of my acquaintance says that
the main diference between Hindu yogis
and Buddhist yogis is the understanding of
Emptiness.
My Nyingma teachers assert very strongly the
denial of the four extremes eternalism, nihilism
dualism and monism. Therefore, deities aren't
a problem, per se-- only the assertion that they are
supreme. -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Fri, August 7, 2009 - 9:49 AMDear Cliff,
Buddha was not Buddhist!
Among the five masters of Siddhartha one was one of the lineage name-holders of Sage Goutama, the authority of The Nyaya system of Philosophy. The Vedic dominated Nyaya schools had to survive their traditions and so they supported all the "four extremes eternalism, nihilism, dualism and monism", but the text of Nyaya calls all the fours as felix! Siddhartha was too pure in perception for the Gautama Acharya and quested to find the root of these four perceptions according to His realisation of the cause-effect reality of Truth, which was taken as a challenge by the master and the religious co-students of the house. This is where He was banned in the known territory of Vedics. Isn't it very much like the blindness of the religious priesthood oriented Buddhism today is going through in the name of unexplained and unproved Faith in place of reliance through real personal guidance of Tantra and Sutra counselings? In Prajnaparamita Lord Buddha says again and again that how less wise are the 'disciples, faith-followers and Pratyekabuddhas'!!! Mileraepa once sang:
" the monasteries are collectories of drift wood,
the monks are business-holders of pride and prejudice."
Later Lord Buddha respected Nyaya system with a little addition to it as the 49th point of logic being Voidness standing on the ground of Neutrality in between cause and effect known as Boudhha Nyaya of the logic of dependable origination. Buddha was not a Buddhist!
Siddharta's another master was the last Tirthankara of The Jains, Vardhamana Mahavira Himself. Thus next to Mahavira His disciple Gautama Muni is worshiped in the tradition. Gautama could not remain as a just an obedient disciple and quested on the root understanding of Jaina Kaivalya or Only-ness because according to His realisation it is the other side of nihilism! Isn't today's Hinayana standing on the same basis of escaping from Samsara by the nihilistic meditation of Nirvana? Where does the virtue of renunciation stands in the realisation of All-Acceptance?
Sage Arhara was Siddhartha's last master of the Sankhya system of philosophy. Sanhkya did not accept any of the four Vedic principles but postulated the cause as Nature or Existance (Prakriti) as it is which is the basis of Tantra in later historical times. According to Sage Kapila who is recognised by Lord Buddha as Konagamana Buddha in His Atanatiya Sutta, all Realisers are nothing but only view-holders of Existence. Siddhartha quested on the origin of Prakriti and Arhar was sincere enough to recognise his quest and said that he was so long happy with what he realised but now it is Siddhartha's duty to to realise the ultimate Truth behind Existence and come back to render him that so that he is nt uneasy with his death without realising that. Buddha kept his word; after attainment of Nirvana He first came to Arhara to share the Wisdom. Buddha was not a Buddhist!
Siddartha learnt meditation from Pundarika, the Shaiva Guru to learn the equipoise between Dual-non-Dual equanimity. Buddha realised the Truth and viewed it as Nirvana or Non-Identity. Kashmiri Shaivism was born in Vikramshila Vihara when Padmasambhva was asked to render His realisation contrary to general Buddhist understanding in His tenure in Nalanda from where He was ousted for new reformations that broke Buddhist orthodox faith in his time. That text of Swayambhunatha is known as Siva-Sutra which was later inherited by Avayakara Gupta, the disciple of Abhinaba Gupta. This is why Vajrayana is also Shaivism but not Vedism, hence it is difficult for me to accept Shaivism as Hindu. If you go to Achintapuru Vihara of Pravasahasti where Padmasambhava has been groomed, today's Ajanta caves, you will get astonished by Shiva-Shakti panels over the door-frames of most of the last caves ofthe Yogacharies. I am trying to send some photographs of it here so that you all can look at the field studies. Naropa's Sekaddeshika tika or explanatory notes of Padmavajrapada's Guhyasiddhi accepts the term Shiva, Jina and Buddha to be the one and the same from different views. Those who think their views are more important than others they withour approaching realisation approaches religion. Padmasambhava was Panchagami or the seesnce-holder of all the five branches of Agama contrary to the Vedic doctrinalism. It was not difficult for Him to defy Sakyamuni's understanding of woman can not attain Nirvana. Khandro Yeshe Chogyal declares that She has attained Buddhahood without being a man and that Padmasambhva's means have rendered Her so defying the view of Sakyamuni (see Self-ellocution by Khandr Yeshe Chogyal in The Sky Dancers)!!! Padmasambhava was not a Buddhist particularly; but a Buddha.
In the essential nature of Bodhi-Dharma or Relience to Realisation, according to all The Ten-thousand Buddhas of all times stands on reliance to realisation and not JUST blind faith, priesthood, high chair,brocade dress, long crowns or sets and props and costumes!
Buddha says in Prajnaparamita Ashtasahasrika:
"... or if, to put an imaginary case, all beings in a great tri-chiliocosm build such a Stupa; and if each of them build such Stupas, and honour them for an aeon or the remainder of an aeon; still the devotee of Perfection of wisdom would have greater merit than that which results from the effect of meritorious deeds of all those beings who erect and worship those countless Stupas." (Chapter3,sec.2, lines 68-69, translation byDr.Edward Conze)
Now the quest :
Is The Void eternal or perishable?
Is renunciation not nihilism?
Is the journey from Samsara to Nirvana not duality?
Is Buddha not supreme?
Apology, if anybody has been hurt by my views.
.......a lover of Bodhi-Dharma-Practice.
Adesh! -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Fri, August 7, 2009 - 10:32 AMSorry, a correction, Avinaba Gupta was Avayakara Gupta's disciple.
Please pardon my silly spelling mistakes; these days in retreat my eyes are too sensitive to the radiation of the computer.
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Thu, August 6, 2009 - 2:09 PMWow, wow, wow. This exactly the sort of wonderful discussion I had hoped for. Unfortunately I will have little time until this weekend to reply to any of it. Thanks all for the wonderful and informative stuff you guys are writing especially Kulavadhautu Satpurananda.
Warm Regards,
Ryan
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Wed, August 19, 2009 - 5:32 PM>We hope that if democracy does not turn to Cinese red-rule in Nepal
>we may still get the secreted texts saved out form the royal collection in future.
>For this a global campaign should come up.
I think as a more practical approach (rather than political pressure of whatever sort) we could and should offer our support (financial and otherwise) to the Newari Vajracarya who preserve the majority of Sanskrit Vajrayana texts, as well as the living tradition of Vajrayana in a form that is probably much closer to that of medieval India than that found in Tibet.
Unfortunately, the tradition is little know outside Nepal (even somebody as knowledgeable as HH the Dalai Lama has said that the lower tantras are preserved in places outside Tibet but only Tibet preserves the anuttara yoga tantras, something which simply isn't true). The Newar lineages are in serious trouble due in no small part to a mass effort to convert Newars to Theravada (as well as other factors, including socioeconomic ones).
>Remember, once we debated about the discrepancies regarding Chinachara and
>Mahachinachara in another tread of a different tribe? Chinachara according to my research
>is the Tao influence and has been mentioned in only Rudrayamala in context to Lord
>Buddhas teaching to Bashishtha but Mahachinakrama has been mentioned in the texts of
>Indian Vajrayana or Natha Tantrik texts to ascertain the teachings of Swayambhunatha as
>well as Natha-siddhas of India in Tibet.
I do remember our discussion quite well but am not quite sure what it is that you are saying here. In any event I am happy to discuss it as Mahacina-Tara is a subject I find endlessly fascinating.
Wamest regards,
Ryan
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 3:32 AMInteresting! In Gorakshpanthi Nath Sampradaya, it was Kanhapa who was banished from the tradition- the same with Jalandharnath( whose has a separate tradition started by him too.
In your opinion is Kanifnath the same as Kanhapa ? There seems to be some regional differences on this. -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 10:06 AMHowdy Durgaputra, I'm moving my answer to the "practical tantra" tribe.
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Fri, August 7, 2009 - 1:10 PMWow indeed - I feel vajra-struck, right between the eyes... Thanks so much for your erudition, Kulavadhutaji!
Re Padmasambhava, I've read somewhere (apologies for the vagueness) that Nyima Oser is Padmasambhava's incarnation as specifically a Shaivite wanderer, meditating in the great cremation grounds. -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Fri, August 7, 2009 - 8:36 PMNyngma Ozar translated to Sanskrit in it's true sense will be Adinatha or the Primordial Effulgence ('prakasha') .
Adinatha was the first mortal Buddha according to even Sakyamuni. He was first Jina according to Mahavira. He was first Hamsavatara of Vishnu according to Sage Vyasa in Srimad Bhagavatam. He is the first Guru of Srividya or The Great Goddess according to the Rudrayamala, and the first Shiva-avatara according to Shivapurana. Remember, in Nagarjuna Kakshaputam Nagarjuna is also called Adinatha. In Lotus Born Padmasambhava called Himself as the reveler of Prajnaparamita. That comes to recognising Him as Nagarjuna in the past. He also calls Himself there as the Bon. Shenrab Bon, the founder of Phenpa / Bon dharma, can be traced as Adinatha because the description and teachings recorded in India in various Agama traditions are so alike. So, Guru Rinpoche is re-incarnation of Adinatha and hence Nyngma Ozar.
If you can free Him from the obscured mythologies of Tibetan Buddhism, you will surely see that His eight forms are nothing but His eightfold Yoga Perfections turned to Teachings and Instructions of essential Vajrayana. If you see His form painted in Pemayangste Monastery of Sikkim, His personal abode, you will see Him exactly as Hindus worship the form of Shiva. Recently, Somapuri Vihara of Bangladesh has been excavated and in the archaeological finding masses of chillum to smoke ganja, and Shivalingams have been found. somapuri is the Vihara founded by Santarakshita-Vimalamitra-Kamashila-Vairochana-Padmasambhava. Mahasiddha Virupa also hailed from there. Remember, More than four statues of Adinatha has been found from Nalanda ruins! What does all these lead our reasons to in the depths of lost history? -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Fri, August 7, 2009 - 9:30 PMI hope nobody finds this overly pedantic but nyi ma 'od zer (ཉི་མ་འོད་ཟེར་) translates the Sanskrit term sUryaprabha सूर्यप्रभ.
Warm Regards,
Ryan -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Sat, August 8, 2009 - 8:01 AMIt is true Ryan as it is generally translated.
I followed the translation of lama Taranatha. I myself am ignorant in Tibetan language. Sun is the attribute of a Natha, called Mahaprabha. May be in the period of translation from Sanskrit to Tibetan it has been mentioned as Sun in the place of Maha to metaphorize the idiom of Great Effulgence.
Thank you Ryan for the scholarly correction. This is what we need today to enjoin the Indian and Tibetan terminologies to recover historical heritages through grammatical and cultural translations to reach the ultimate meaning of the terms. Do you think that Sun effulgence is enough to describe the Aghora or beyond illusion? Tibet respects sun-rays more than anything more important in their regular life, so that can be the mode of metaphoric translation. Remember, Padmasambhva did not know Tibetan language. It is only the grace of Khandro Yeshe Chogyal (Jayavidya / Jayantika / Aparajita, in Sanskrit, see Nilatantra) that helped Tibetans to receive the translated version of His teachings. Devi Jayantika was well-versed in Sanskrit and Pali and talked in Apavramsa as found in the rarest historical time-capsules or text termas by Her in Siddhamatrika script in 'Hybrid Buddhist Sanskrit language'. Like Milarepa found in Charyagiti discoverde by Haraprasad Shastri as Milindanatha or Milindapa. How do one assert such? by comparing the Apabhranmsa songs with the translated Tibetan songs. we also know from Milarepa's history that He learned Indian languages to teach in Indian territories like Nepal and others.
Thank you Ryan for again the correction. -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Sat, August 8, 2009 - 8:29 AMGuru Rinpoche brought the first translators with him.
The main difference between early translation and later
translation is the ealier follows more the intention and spirit
rather than the exact literal meanng. Oser means light
in the connotation sense of inner light. But there are several
ways of translating both Sanskrit and Tibetan. Tibetan is very
idiomatic and Tibetans like to contract words. Eg. Dorje Sempa
and Dzogpachenpo become Dorsem and Dzogchen repectively.
Dorje / Vajra meaning Thunderbolt or Diamond litterally means
"king of rocks." So each syllable can be expanded to its full meaning.
translating requires unpacking many layers. -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Mon, August 10, 2009 - 9:01 AMI'm a little thick at times and maybe even border on Asperger's (my sister is diagnosed with it and we're a lot alike) so I don't always get what people are saying. Are you just making general statements about Tibetan are getting at something else (like that nyi ma 'od zer isn’t actually a translation of sUryaprabha).
BTW I agree with both of you that the term can be unpacked, and the rough metaphorical equivalence with adinatha (primordial master) seems straight forward enough (the rays of the sun being the source of physical light and life, and the primordial guru being the source of spiritual light and life)
I'm working on something about the Natha/Vajrayana link that should be read to post before too long.
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Tue, August 11, 2009 - 5:29 AMDear Mark,
The big post that Buddha was not a Buddhist was for you and by mistake I addressed it to Cliff. Sorry for that. These days I am going through Eye problems and working on windows have become a serious strain.
Can you refer any historical book that establishes Guru Rinpoche bringing translators with Him to Tibet who were equally knowledgeable in both the Sanskrit and Tibetan languages? My specific area of academic research is Guru Rinpoche. I have been confused by Tibetan literature regarding His life in more than 150 biographies among which only a few has been translated to English, because most of them I have come across, got translated by Tibetan acharyas and scholars for my research, are holding huge discrepancies regarding His historical time and birth and many other events of His life. And they have turned so very mythical and mystified that it is impossible for a researcher in modern times to assert a historical character that He was.
You are very right about the structure of idiomatic translation of Tibetan from Sanskrit. One I want to mention here. Guru Rinpoche has been claimed to be born 12 years / 8 years after Lord Sakyamuni. To establish that in The Tibetan Book of Great Liberation, He has been met with Ananda and has been made a guru of Nagarjuna Himself! All His Sanskrit works published from Sarnath in recent times have been dated eight century which is 1200 years after Buddha rather than 12 years after. The term 12 versus 1200 in matter of years is quite a trouble for historians, don't you think so? Actually it can be a blind follow up of the Sanskrit code of :
1 Buddhavarsha/ Buddha year = 100 years of an ordinary man.
It postulates the experiential maturity of a Buddha Mind is different from a common mind in such proportions. Taking that for granted to be a straight truth Guru Rinpoche has been thrown back some 1200 years in History and to strengthen that He had to fictitously be even guru of Nagarjuna and disciple of Ananda!!! If He was guru of Nagarjuna, why Nagarjuna has not mentioned it at all in all His works and why Padmavajrapada refers to Nagarjuna' works in His works as past references? Now, these obscure texts have been documented as mind-termas by celebrated Tibetan lineage heros! If it is challenged, I am a vajra-hell visisting non-believer. And if I am a historical researcher and accept this myth as fact then I am an crazy idiot!
Dear Ryan,
This is what I meant to say about my reliance in Tibetan translation of Sanakrit literature over my 25 years of research in this land and society of Tibetan Buddhism. Even the later texts about the nadis their names and positions are all made into such a cumbersome chowmein that by the direct practical knowledge and yogic experience through practical gurus I found them responsible for loosing faith, far beyond facts and realities.
I will really be grateful to you my friends, if these areas of the Tibetan translations are focused by you people with your true pedantic qualities to help modern researchers to grow reliance on the texts.
Ryan, due to my ignorance in Tibetan language, I always took Nyngma Ozer in place of Nima Ozer! Laugh at me! That is why I translated it to be Adinatha or the Ancient Lord. Ozer, I derived from the 'rays of Compassion'. But being Suryaprapha it co-relates to the attribute of THE GURU in Sanskrit as 'suryakotipratikasham-chandrakotisusheetalam' (radiant as innumerable suns,cool as innumerable moons) in Ananda Bhairava mantra.
With full respect to knowledge and research, at your service..............Satpurananda............ -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Tue, August 11, 2009 - 9:11 AMKula:
I'm not a scholar, I've said this many times. I'm a practitioner.
I have no problem with Guru Rinpoche's lifespan. Tibetans
have a very different sense of history and time than Westerners
do. One is not better or more correct than another. Myth and
history are not necessarily contradictory. Jigmed Lingpa
was a disciple of Longchenpa (400 years after Longchenpa died.)
If Longchenpa can appear in person to Jigmed Lingpa, then
Guru Rinpoche can appear in person to Dudjom Rinpoche.
Manjushri lives at Wu Tai Shan along with Vairochana. Manjushri
was met in person by Khenpo Jigpun in the 1980's. Of course
the Lotus Sutra says the lifespan of Shakyamuni is infinite too.
Of course on the Hindu side, they say the same about Babaji!
It matters not if these are literally true, they are true nonetheless
in the experience of practitioners who have some accumulation of
merit and purification.
Have you read Vajra Garland and Lotus Garden? They are translated
into English by Yeshe Gyamtso. Namthars or Hagiographies are not
necessarily non-factual! -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Tue, August 11, 2009 - 11:07 PMDear Mark,
Thank you for the name of the books. I will try to collect at once and go through with a researcher's mind.
Belief goes in one end and realisation goes in the other. Lord Buddha emphasized on cause and effect reality of things and not blind faith. This is the earliest difference between Buddhism and Hinduism. When we discuss a subject we should pay more attention to cause and effect rule because belief is very personal and according to the rule of discussion should not be put forward. Thus we create religion going far off from the reality of spiritual realisation.
The Tantras being hardcore reality of practical spirituality, if you go through the early Indian texts, like Hevajra, Chakrasambara or Kalachakra, you will find one line as a warning at the very start, "free from exaggeration and imagination". Or "evam maya srutam" which is the evidence of true quotation of any master or his sangha.
If Buddha challanged, the entire arena of sustaining philosophy with logic and understandable realizations, why Buddhists should be blind faith-followers away from even the spirit of cultivating the reality????? Does respect to a tradition or a master includes to buy all rubbish that it sells? Where is the point of Perfection of Wisdom at that end? Is Lamaism still Buddhism or Priestism like any other fundamentalist religion?
Seeing Guru Rinpoche in later times do not satisfy the logic of His Historical biological reality still pulling on. It of course satisfies the vision-holders sincerity and accomplishment on his/her dedication to the meditation or thoughts to Guru Rinpoche. But, at the same time going back in time before Guru Rinpoche was at all born as the particular form-name-identity, is blasphemy in the line of acute exaggeration and imagination! Why others have to buy it? And then some day as a responsible moderator you may say that it is Tibetan Buddhism tribe and you can not any more allow this debate, and erase out this thread proving that Buddha has been stabbed by Tibetan Buddhists and there remains no respect to 'cause and effect', 'time and space' reality of things as they are and not what one loves to see in difference!
We should keep it in mind that Indian history started with Buddhist documentation with reference to 'space and time' in order not to become "heretics". This term "heretics" (tirthika) is so much in use describing general Hindu belief system in Tibetan religion that it sometimes makes me think it as a laughing stalk when Tibetan Buddhism in later times got into the habit of making newer and newer stories in the pure heresay-heretical order. Let us not call that as oral tradition because oral tradition of history / itihasa and sutras passing through innumerable non-realisers can do this harm to any dammed religious system proving that 'the Light' is lost in 'over-caring' for it. Oral tradition is experiential yogic teachings that are rendered with 'transmission' in person by The Master with convincing proofs to the disciple with the responsibility to convince others equally towards Nirvana in the path of Sunyata / Voidness. Heretics are people who follow the blind faith towards sutras or tantras without cause and effect test to everything they like to rely upon. Lord Buddha Himself asserted this in the Sutras. Tantras in contrary has spoken about dedication to The Master with His/Her teachings without unnecessary tests.
Why ?
Because by my quality of coursing in 'cause and effect' in 'time and space' I am convinced about the teacher and found my Master in Him/Her. So I have no right to stand against The Master.
But do I have any right to pass by my earlier thoughts along matured experience in the Bodhisttva path that both I and my teacher are in the same journey?
Do I have any right to proceed or not if my quest goes farther is the question and that claims enough responsible and convincing answers in the path of efficient means for Compassion and logical (Boudhha Nyaya in this respect) interpretation of Wisdom?
Right of course should be harnessed by Responsibility because Compassion is empathy and not just sympathy. If we are Mahayanists first in the course of reaching to Vajrayanists today, we are the early Vaivasikas, The Heterodox. And if we are Vajrayanis we should always follow with understanding the rules of joining the Guru with the Disciples according to Kulachara-krama-dharana, Kularnav Tantra, Kaulabali Tantra that what are the traits and codes to choose the Guru by the Disciple and the Disciple by the Guru. In my oral tradition we rely upon the word of my Guru that these texts are compiled by Swayambhunatha's (Guru Rinpoche) direct disciples where He has been designated as "Shiva", The Compassionate Wisom. Now, I should also keep my belief system secret if I am not confident enough to prove my master's words through proper proofs that I have the responsibility to collect in my journey to establish myself as an ardent lineage or a tradition holder. At this point my only logic should be my conviction to my Master equipped with the Sutra-Wisdom to implant Tantra-Compassion in others through The Energy that can fight defilement. I should, in such case, go along my Masters track secretly keeping my reliance and beliefs to myself and follow the track of acceptable logic, Buddhist logic as in this particular case, to prove my conviction to my Master to preach Him/Her. I should not by any means try to stress on others about my belief system. By this if I do so, I will disrespect the authenticity of my Master as well as my own collected proofs to enable myself to carry the true Samaya nature. My Masters taught me to check on the Gurus even. If not, Sadgurus feel bored with 'yes-masters'. Yogini Chinta, The Kula-Shila Holder of late ninth to early tenth Century (?) in the seat of Uddiyana, says the same thing in the first and second chapters of Sahaja Siddhi in Her descriptions about how to accompany a Guru in the role of a Disciple and even a Lover.
This is said to be the age of Maitreya in many Indian and Tibetan Buddhist lineages which calls for a renaissance through truthful revolts if Vajrayana has turned to a faith-oriented Tibetan / Indian culture in the pack religion to break the ever-love-affair between Sutra and Tantra that stands against the parity of The Two.
In this respect anyone will be brought into light by dZongtsar Khyentse Rinpoche's critical article regarding degeneration of Buddhist principles in the Tibetan traditions, recently published in his sangha magazine.
By the way, don't consider myself as either Hindu or Buddhist fueling against each other or anyone in this discussion. In this case my title of Kula- Avadhuta, received through my oral lineage of great masters is subject to recognizing me as a 'Scoundrel' (derivative in Indian vernaculars) and Divine Law Breaker (in Sanskrit) who is open to any experiential or logical challenge to handle that, "I don't belong to any religion". For my personal self I have followed many paths in the course of Perfection of Wisdom and turned to a 'Scoundrel' through the path of Bodhi- Practitioners. I am saying all these because I felt that I have been taken as a Hindu attack on Tibetan Buddhism by the psychology behind the lines -
"Of course on the Hindu side, they say the same about Babaji! It matters not if these are literally true, they are true nonetheless in the experience of practitioners who have some accumulation of merit and purification."
To have full respect to Tibetan Buddhism and tradition I need to say that I have a written letter and a kadam chorten carrying Atisha's relics offered to me by Chatral Sangye Dorje Rimpoche, traditionally recognizing me as a Dzogchenpo as explained by His secretary as I have heard without any exaggeration or imagination. Him, I consider as my Tibetan Buddhist Master who teaches me through sign language for last 6 years, personally and through the correspondence of our disciples and students. In profession I happen to be a visiting professor both in Indian and Western universities and academic circles as field-adviser and research guide in Vajrayana, Sufism, Gnosticism, and other 'occult and obscure cults'. For myself I stick to my Scoundreldom.
Please don't mind I just showed my Tibetan card first time in tribe in the right situation with the hope that my post won't get omitted for not being in the Tibetan Buddhist lineage of the secret oral and sign-language tradition!
Forgive me, I love Debate and Buddhist Nyaya is my logic board.
I equally love logical attacks and challenges because it breaks the boredom of a researcher in the role of a Indian Vajrayani master/teacher who is fed up with faith followers in his own house and job worlds.
--- Kulavadhuta Satpurananda by Masters' Grace.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Wed, August 12, 2009 - 8:10 AMWhere did I suggest that I was Anti-Hindu?
Where did I say I was not interested in Buddhist
Epistemology or Dialectic? I think critical thought
is quite important, but when it comes to the practice
of Tantra and it's lineages-- faith is a major factor.
Now certain fundamentalists will say that faith
demands that certain mythic things believed in must
be factually true. To which I say, truth has many dimensions;
and fact is perhaps the lest important aspect, especially
when compared with meaning.
Anyway, this is a tribe for Tibetan Buddhists and
those wishing to become Tibetan Buddhists. We can stray
off topic somewhat, assuming it is relevant. But we cannot
have what happens in some other places called "Buddhist"
where they talk about everything under the sun or assert
that meditation is equivalent to Buddhism, of "I feel..." and
"I think..." somehow supersedes the Sutras, Shastras,Tantras
or the oral teachings of qualified Gurus.
Frankly, I'm a bit suspicious of your assertion that you are
connected to Chatral Rinpoche directly as a student. Perhaps
if you said you were in retreat with him for 6 or 12 years I'd believe.
I know how hard it is to meet him, because he's always in practice,
he *never* teaches (not really never... but he really avoids any
entanglements.) If I were suspicious, I'd ask Lamas I know who
really are his lineage-holders. But I'm a lazy yogi! -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Wed, August 12, 2009 - 9:27 PMThank you Mark for your frankness.
I knew that all things under sun is not the realisation of "Buddhists" because they see Buddha's way in their short boundaries of specific non-universal attitudes towards Dharma that creates an definition to religion.
I am sorry that I wrongly regarded Tibetan Buddhism tribe to be Vajrayana. discussion and research.
I am not a Master in Western sale shop! I don't need to steal a Tibetan card for that. If you ever get a chance to meet Chattral Rinpoche in His person, you can ask, or Saraswati, His daughter and personal secretary, you can ask, or His head priest in Pherping if you can ask, ask about my relationship to Him. If you want to seriously check on this point you can write to my personal message box and I can render a photo copy of His letter written in Tibetan and then you can check that with His disciples you know to clarify the letter and check on His signature.........all are open to you to further allow me to be in your grace of Moderatorship in this tribe or not.
No need for that, I think it is quite a time to leave this tribe that I was invited into once.
Thank you for your support of proving cultured proofs to -- Tibetan Buddhism in fundamental move to survive tradition over to Bodhi-Practice.
Thank you all for everything in this open discussion and passing good time with you people.
Love-Blessings-Friendliness................................Kulavadhuta Satpurananda............................................Bye
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Thu, August 13, 2009 - 1:01 PMAum. Let us be very careful not to assert our speculations or the unvalidated heresay of others, over to the direct life experiences of the lineage Masters or our dharma friends. Authentic evidence should be taken very seriously and I feel it very dangerous for us on the path to risk allowing identity-confusions to become obstacles to sincerity in all our relationships.
My wife and I have personally met with and received teachings of the Nagpa order from Chatral Sangay Dorje Rinpoche's direct disciple and the Dorje Lobe of his monastery in Pharping, Nepal. Dorje Lobe spoke through a translator to us of his own private meeting with my Master, Kulavadhuta Satpurananda. The same meeting was verified from others of my Vajra Brothers and Sisters who were present then and also at the private meeting of Baba Kulavadhuta and Chatral Rinpoche. In addition, I met another of my Vajra Brothers leaving the house of Chatral Rinpoche where he was staying in Nepal, after receiving blessing and empowerment from Rinpoche.
I have personally viewed the aforementioned letter, handwritten in Tibetan script.
I request the friends of this tribe, admit my humble contribution of evidence supporting my Masters words, that we avoid confrontations and promote understanding. Adesh. -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Thu, August 13, 2009 - 3:06 PMWho is confronting whom?
I merely expressed my doubts.
I do not know that the Great Chatral Rinpoche
teaches Naga Nath, I do not know that he doesn't.
I do know that many claim to have received teachings
from this great being, and he himself has denied it.
He is renowned for his realization, and also for his
disinterest in collecting disciples-- unless they are
doing long retreat.
Who goes out in a huff, when asked to verify their
statements?
From my side, I cannot verify the authenticity of this tradition.
Buddhism has specific criteria. What criteria establishes
a master among Babas, I don't know. Who authenticates them
I cannot say. Who can? -
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Tradition is just a repetitive and boring sentiment
Sat, August 15, 2009 - 2:37 AMDon't ask me......
Chances are I would kill a true buddha on the road because I would be expressing doubts and looking for verification of authenticity! Even if I was satisfied of genuineness I would still be suspicious unless the right amount of lotuses were under foot and ushnisha was tall enough. I would whip buddha with scorpions and ask him not to accept my gifts if he is truly a buddha.
Empty robes can be worshipped as buddha don't you know? -
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Re: Tradition is just a repetitive and boring sentiment
Mon, August 17, 2009 - 9:17 AMEmaho!
As Competition gets churned out through love,
I realize My Ishta needs no defense from me.
But in Love,
This Sadhaka practices awakening.
As a child tramples ants,
let's cleanse our idiocy.
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Re: Tradition is just a repetitive and boring sentiment
Mon, August 17, 2009 - 10:49 AM"let's cleanse our idiocy. "
If Natha Naga is a yogi, then I think it is a quite clear that he is a student of Chatral Senge Dorje Rinpoche. Rather a cozy retreat place you have there, with laptop and everything.
www.shabkar.org/images/dec...rinpoch.jpg -
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Re: Tradition is just a repetitive and boring sentiment
Mon, August 17, 2009 - 11:11 AMI truly am sorry for my rude language, but I have became as most suspicious, especially when someone claims to be Chatral Rinpoche's student. -
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Re: Tradition is just a repetitive and boring sentiment
Mon, August 17, 2009 - 3:25 PMYou know, I know a Tibetan who did retreat
under the guidance of Chatral Rinpoche--
3 years, 3 months and 3 days of Ngondro
only.
I assume that's more than the standard
100,000 prostrations! Anyway, no luck that
even this person -- born into a great dharma
family-- would be recognized, become a Lama,
a teacher or any such thing. Advice he got:
"practice more or get a job." Chatral Rinpoche
himself is like Lama Tsongkhapa in that
he wore a hole in the ground where he did
millions of prostrations. 14 lineages completely
accomplished from beginning to end-- from
ngondro, through three roots, tsa-lung and
dzogchen-- no short-cuts
anywhere
How likely is it that this Supreme Lama who
rarely even gives lung to those seeking guidance --
more rarely gives detailed teaching or empowerments.
And does so only for those going into long retreat
to practice them. Yes, I have doubts. -
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Nyonpa you are cool.
Tue, August 18, 2009 - 12:03 AMWow, this is amazing. I feel very excited to be a member of this tribe now. Actually, I should have written, "cleanse MY idiocy" because it's my typical airiness to judge the truth of others statements, shown by my choice of the word "our" which I admit was subconsciously sarcastic.
I love rude language.
Thank you so much, Ryan, for starting this thread. In discussion of the Saints, Ma Bhairavi appears.This whole discussion has created beautiful feelings in me. Not that anything about me matters to this thread about Saraha, but just to share with you all, I was sitting quietly with my wife in the midnight, I had my chillum, and then I remembered this thread. I started lazily dreaming of Saraha singing by the midnight fire. It was my romantic imagination. My eyes were closed, but I guess they were moving, because my wife observed my body language and asked me what I was thinking about. And as I considered her question, I realized that this online community has taught me so much about myself, and that as I was lost in complex thoughts, my wife recognized so simply where there were blocks in my meditation.
Thanks to Nyonpa for posting the song of Saraha for us all to read. It is long and so deep and I want to take some time with it, but to me it seems like a great source for some fine discussion.
Thanks to Mark’s contributions and queries I have learned a lot about Tibetan Buddhism and gained some good perspective on where I am in my practice.
I really didn’t mean to be offensive, but honestly sometimes I start to feel offended while reading some postings in this tribe. Is that rude to say, to spill out my emotions online? I’m still trying to figure out the different ways people want to use this “social networking” thing, and it’s especially hard to decipher in this community. I am truly amazed to observe how folks express themselves through electronic posts. It is both bizarre and fascinating. I have been reading posts in this tribe for about 3 or 4 months now. Is it just me, or does anyone else read a lot of emotions and personal judgments coming out in this online Buddhism group?
My problem is I am not a scholar, and I don’t know very much about the dialectics, history, or traditions of the Tibetan schools of Buddhism. However, I think I am understanding from this thread that Saraha’s lineage shows a clear indication of the connection of the Nath Mahasiddha tradition in Bengal during and after Saraha’s time to both the Nyigma and the later Tibetan lineages. Is it correct? So that being said, is there any difference between a Baba and a Rinpoche, or are they just names?
I wish us all a fruitful meditation for the upcoming Dark Moon festival.
BYOM. -
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Re: Nyonpa you are cool.
Tue, August 18, 2009 - 8:10 AMSaraha was the Tantric Guru of Nagarjuna.
Did you know that? Nagarjuna has a Sutric
master too. Of course, Nagarjuna is best
known for the Six Shastras on Mahayana
Philosophy that are universally accepted by
Mahayana Buddhists. The Philosophy --
the view of Emptiness-- that Nagarjuna
explains *is* the basis of Tantra.
He very clearly describes the View beyond
either belief in a truly existing eternal Self,
or a Nihilistic view. He clearly states that
absolutely nothing that we experience--
internally or externally has any inherent nature.
Yet phenomena occur. This is deep, far deeper
than our few words on Tribe. In Tibetan Monasteries,
the monks and nuns study and debate these texts
for many years before they feel qualified to speak
about them. They give a week or a month to just
one word!
Anyway, Nagarjuna emphasizes faith and wisdom
equally. We who follow this tradition should at least
read the major works-- the classics and commentaries;
should check our understanding with qualified masters
before we make pronouncements. Meditate-- that goes
without saying, but meditate based on accurate information!
Nagarjuna was able to feed his monastery during a famine.
He was the manager of the famous Nalanda for 12 years.
How? Alchemy! He made gold from iron! Folks, this is a
result of correct understanding of Emptiness and correct
application of Tantra. It is also said that he lived 400 years!
It behooves us to understand Saraha and Nagarjuna both. -
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Can Sarahapa be Nagarjuna's historical guru?
Tue, August 18, 2009 - 8:47 AMI'm confused. If Lord Nagarjuna is generally accepted to have lived in the first century A.C.E. (although the teachings I received do put him at 200 B.C.E. until 200 A.C.E. Yes-- 400 years), and Sarahapa was the grand-disciple of Padmasambhava, who lived in the eighth century A.C.E., how could Sarahapa possibly be the guru of Nagarjuna? Sarahapa lived a minimum of 600 years after Nagarjuna. It sound crazy. It seems like the Tibetan history is convoluted and goes against logical academic understanding.
I don't feel qualified at all to comment on Nagarjuna's philosophy, or anyone elses, until I have practiced, gone through it, and firmly established that view in my self, through direct experience. Otherwise it's just speculation and heresay, and I sound like a parrot spouting off my empty understanding of dharma, or a foolish preacher on a bully pulpit. -
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Re: Can Sarahapa be Nagarjuna's historical guru?
Tue, August 18, 2009 - 9:44 AMIt is a puzzle isn't it?
Shatarakshita is said to have lived
900 years, but some Tibetan Scholars
say it should be 90. Chicken or egg?
Did Nagarjuna accomplish longevity
then enlightenment or vise-versa?
I do accept that that the Babaji of the Hindus,
Manjushri, Vimalamitra and Guru Rinpoche
are immortal and can be met in person.
On the other hand, others can only be met
in visions.
Please note, I'm not saying that *I* have met
any of them in person or "pure visions."
Except maybe their emanations-- you know the
XVI Karmapa used to say "I don't know that I'm
the rebirth of the XV Karmapa, but I know I am
Guru Rinpoche." I have met the both the emanation
of Longchenpa and the rebirth of Jigmed Lingpa.
But that's another story entirely. -
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cool idiot
Tue, August 18, 2009 - 12:51 PMI love being offended, it teaches me what is wrong with me.
Nagarjuna lived over 600 years, people would come and try to kill him with weapons with no luck until he told everyone of once crushing a bug with a blade of grass. He said that the karma of the bug-squishing had matured and someone lopped his head off with a blade of grass. One last jaw-dropping finale teaching. -
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I am giving thanks!
Tue, August 18, 2009 - 4:22 PMMy jaw keeps dropping and dropping! Thanks to all for sharing.
Historical and inner connections between Naths, Mahasiddhas and Vajrayana are undeniable.
Politics, pride and prejudice are painful, wherever and whenever they arise. Practice is the antidote.
Wishing you all the best, and lots of blessings from your lineage of choice!
Love and devotion and gratitude! -
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Re: I am giving thanks!
Tue, August 18, 2009 - 4:38 PMBesides, the dates of Nagarjuna, Saraha, and Guru Rinpoche
are all uncertain. Some scholars date Nagarjuna in the 3rd
Cent. CE. Perhaps Saraha was earlier than commonly thought.
I heard H. H. the Dalai Lama in person state that there is
considerable debate over Shakyamuni Buddha's dates.
It is not definitive.
To which I return to my mantra: "What difference does it make?"
Certainly it's interesting, but historical facts do not damage the
truth of the teaching. Shall we return to practice? -
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Re: I am giving thanks!
Tue, August 18, 2009 - 5:50 PMOne thing I learned from buddhism is, you don't have to know everything. The more you know, the more you suffer and must unlearn.... haha.
In my opinion debate is the best way to learn dharma for novice juniors like myself. Books and teachers rarely refine their points for best understanding and benefit.
No need for masters to debate, that is why they always send a student of theirs instead.
I wish you all swift painless liberation of naked mind!
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Tue, August 18, 2009 - 9:12 PMOne realization can remove kalpas of karma, one angry thought at death can cause a kalpa in a hell realm. No buddha will enlighten you for you. It is all up to you, please be awake and set aside entrapment of dogmatic doctrines. Everything is changing even the tradition of buddhism has evolved and streamlined to be most effective. The universe is as large as your mind. The only imposter that should concern is self. -
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Re: ...
Tue, August 18, 2009 - 10:27 PMHi Nyonpa, you madman you ;-)
>. No buddha will enlighten you for you. It is all up to you, please be awake and set aside
>entrapment of dogmatic doctrines. Everything is changing even the tradition of buddhism
>has evolved and streamlined to be most effective. The universe is as large as your mind.
>The only imposter that should concern is self.
Very nicely put.
Warmest regards,
Ryan
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Wed, August 19, 2009 - 9:20 AMRe Natha/Mahasiddha connections, according to this article (www.religiousworlds.com/mandal...s.htm), the Sabara Tantra includes Nagarjuna in a list of 'Kapalikas':
The Kapalika sect is in some minor respects closely allied to it, but it is a distinct path altogether; and though its origin is attributed to Adinatha, its main teachings and practices have a character of their own.
The Sabara Tantra gives a list of twenty-four Kapalikas - 12 teachers and 12 pupils. It is interesting to find that some of these names, especially those of the pupils, are those of the well-known Nathas or Siddhas. The names of the twelve teachers, for instance, are - (1) Adinatha (2) Anadinatha (3) Kalanatha, (4) Atikalanatha, (5) Karalanatha, (6) Vikaralanatha, (7) Mahakalanatha, (8) Kala Bhairavanatha, (9) Batukanatha, (10) Bhutanatha, (11) Viranatha and (12) Srikanthanatha. The names of their twelve pupils appear in this order (1) Nagarjuna, (2) Jada Bharata, (3) Harischandra, (4) Satyanatha, (5) Bhimanatha (6) Goraksanatha, (7) Charpatanatha, (8) Avadyanatha, (9) Vairagyanatha, (10) Kanthadhari, (11) Jalandhara and (12) Malayarjuna.
Which does seem to link Nagarjuna to the Naths. Now I haven't read the Sabara Tantra, but I thought it was an interesting snippet in view of what's been discussed here...
Best,
Pip -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Wed, August 19, 2009 - 10:19 AMYes, many kapalika scriptures mention well-known Siddhas and/or Nathas especially those texts from the medieval period. Presumably this is because most of the well-known Siddhas were from the Pala period. It is also worth noting that many hatha-yoga texts mention the kapilikas. The Hatha-yoga-pradipika and the Gheranda-samhita are probably the best known (but certainly not the only) examples of this.
The connection between the nathas, kapalikas and Vajrayana runs very deep. Up Alexis Sanderson has discussed the -extensive- borrowing of kapalika textual material, imagery, and ritual elements in Varjrayana texts.
See for example:
The Śaiva Age: The Rise and Dominance of Śaivism during the Early Medieval Period
alexissanderson.com/Document...a_Age.pdf
Vajrayâna: Origin and Function
vajrayana.faithweb.com/Sander...ana.pdf
The Saiva Sources of the Buddhist Yoginîtantras: The Case of the Ritual of Initiation Taught in the Laghusamvara-tantra
vajrayana.faithweb.com/SAIVA%...%20.pdf
History through Textual Criticism in the study of Saivism, the Pañcarâtra and the Buddhist Yoginîtantras
vajrayana.faithweb.com/Sander...ory.pdf
A number of interesting papers have been written on the subject of the Nathas and Vajrayana. I originally was only going to share some of these with a few friends (at least until I have time to update my webpage) but since this thread has turned back to interesting historical questions, I’ll share the links here:
The Siddha as a Cultural Category
vajrayana.faithweb.com/natha/...ory.pdf
Buddhaguptanatha a late Indian Siddha in Tibet
vajrayana.faithweb.com/natha/...bet.pdf
The Sea and Land Travels of a Buddhist Sadhu in the 16th Century
vajrayana.faithweb.com/natha/...ury.pdf
The Attainment of Immortality: From Nathas in India to Buddhists in Tibet.
vajrayana.faithweb.com/natha/...dhi.pdf
Jabir the Buddhist Yogi: Part 1
vajrayana.faithweb.com/natha/...ogi.pdf
Jabir the Buddhist Yogi: Part 2
vajrayana.faithweb.com/natha/...rt2.pdf
Tibetan Sources on Muktinath
vajrayana.faithweb.com/natha/...ath.pdf
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Wed, August 19, 2009 - 12:20 PMEmaho!
Incredible, Ryan. You are a very serious resource, my friend. Thanks so much for sharing all this.
Best,
Pip -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Wed, August 19, 2009 - 4:58 PMYes, Ryan rocks the resource multiverse. I am seriously grateful! Rocket fuel to support consciousness' flight into awareness and beyond. -
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Wed, August 19, 2009 - 5:47 PMYou two are very kind but I'm just sharing stuff I found interesting. There is so much more out there. In any event, thanks for the kind words.
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Re: Saraha and the Bengali siddha songs
Thu, August 20, 2009 - 8:26 PMThis is all very cool stuff. Can't wait to start going through some of these articles. Thanks for sharing, Ryan.
Very grateful for the words of understanding, y'all.
Who knew there was so much knowledge on these traditions available in the cyberverse?
Missing You, Khyapa. Can't wait for You to drop science on the Kapalikas.
I just want to mention, without revealing my experiences, that I am having some super, if not painful, brain-heart openings from this thread.
I agree that practice is more important than debating historical facts (at least for another junior novice like myself) but I also think it's important to clarify histories in order to create a reliable foundation for future academic research. Which seems to be what we're attempting to do. My friends and I are talking about eventually creating a Natha-lineage timeline, under Khyapa Baba's guidance, in a sort of 3D visual format, with connecting chains to other lineages and traditions, like a 3D family tree. Each master or lineage name would be a cyberlink to a series of articles, which in turn would contain more links to more articles. These references will surely help. It is a decades-long project of filling-in-the-blanks. Visiting Ajanta and Elora caves in Maharastra and seeing firsthand how the Five schools were living side-by-side in that time was a huge inspiration, not to mention living in Khyapa's house in Sikkim and hearing him teach on the subject.
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