"Love All, Hurt No One, Trust A Few" : Thoughts on Buddhism in the West and Spiritual Community

topic posted Wed, July 15, 2009 - 8:58 PM by  K
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"Love All, Hurt No One, Trust A Few" : Thoughts on Buddhism in the West and Spiritual Community
by KT

Response to "I have some fear of sangha [ Buddhist fellowship ]".

"Love all, trust a few. Do wrong to none."
William Shakespeare, "All's Well That Ends Well", Act 1 Scene 1

"This is no flattery: these are counsellors
That feelingly persuade me what I am.
Sweet are the uses of adversity. . ."
William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 2 Scene 1

It is perfectly reasonable to be cautious about any religious or spiritual fellowship. This does not mean you have to be in any way concerned about same. There are general principles to be followed.

The most basic principle, which was stated by both Confucius ( Kung Fu Tse ) and Guru Sakyamuni Buddha, has always been this:
"Do not do unto others as you would not be treated by them."

In other words, live and let live. Things get complicated sometimes, so we have to consider the content and contexts of communication. I'll do that here, specifically with regard to Buddhist fellowships in the West. The basic approach is very simple, but I really haven't seen it articulated or demonstrated in concrete terms. So I'm writing this to help people through what can be a rough spot in social and cultural relations: how to deal with unknown people and fellowships.

The basic model is that of the humble samurai, or sometimes, the "peaceful warrior". With that in mind, the following is written as a response to a tribe.net thread "I have some fear of sangha [ Buddhist fellowship ]".

It is different to be concerned ( or cautious ) about an individual Buddhist practitioner than to be concerned about a Buddhist group. These should be separable issues.

You have fear of judgement by others. But others judge us all the time, at work or at school or in public or whatever. But what are the risks of social judgement, for any of us?

Remember that other Buddhist students are just that, other Buddhist students. They don't necessarily have the authority to lay down any law or challenge anyone on anything. Certainly not as a snap judgement, nor based on mere hearsay.

There are some basic rules for Buddhist gatherings, such as
1) Don't arrive unwashed, drunk or drugged at a Buddhist gathering.
2) Don't smoke in front of a Buddhist teacher or at a Buddhist gathering.
3) Don't interrupt a Buddhist teacher when he or she speaks.
4) Don't cause problems for any one individual, group or teacher. If there is a legal or financial or psychological problem area to address, try to find a balanced outcome, by a third party, or by drawing appropriate interpersonal boundaries. You can even resort to police help or litigation or kung fu if necessary. But as I will show later, I don't think such recourses will ever be needed.

Most Buddhists that I have seen tend to be shy, quiet, fairly withdrawn, and often tend towards the less social or nonsocial. Nonsocial meaning socially disengaged, the opposite of antisocial aggression. If there is a problem with Buddhist communities in the West, it relates more to the way these can be "dissocial aggregates", collections of more-or-less strangers who do not know or care much about engaging other Buddhists. But that is changing, as I have seen.

Buddhists are often emotionally weary, and quite often can be depressed or frustrated or self-conflicted people. A typically Buddhist characterological response is to emotionally disengage from others, hence the common introversion. The trend overall however is towards healthier engagement of oneself and others, for a fair number anyway. We have a lot of good teachers, practices, and some really cutting edge psychologists.

Basically, you're more likely to get into problems walking through a college campus than going to a Buddhist fellowship, Tibetan or otherwise. U Cal Berkeley has some risks, particularly for women, as do college campuses in general. But Oakland California is no doubt extremely dangerous as it was many years ago. I wouldn't get out of the BART tube there for any reason. Too much gunfire!

. . .At the same time, I have repeatedly found many Buddhists to very judgemental and some are extremely judgemental. And there can be problems, and these can escalate. But most often these problems are based on real ignorance of others, on jumping to conclusions. This happens quite commonly when a far less experienced "Buddhist" has condemning thoughts towards a far more experienced and far more capable Buddhist. This in fact happens all the time. I really get sick of it, and as a western-born teacher, I have to always be very careful, but I think overall that ignorant attacks are more self-limiting and self-defeating.

Here is the very simple "secret" to dealing with such problems. If someone criticizes you, or even yells at you or outright attacks you, relax and focus and listen. That's it, just relax and focus and listen. This works almost all the time, and it works in really difficult situations. The principle is just the same as "defensive driving". It is classical Buddhist kung fu as well. ( If a police officer were to yell at me, my response would automatically be
"Good afternoon, officer. What can I do for you?" )

I once relaxed and focused when attacked and challenged to a duel, by a Buddhist teacher I did not know. It happened like this. One day in the late eighties I was walking down the road just outside a large Buddhist temple, where I sometimes taught as vajrayana guru ( on a rotating basis ) for a couple years. Some guy, while washing the car of the tantric lineage holder, turned around, straightened and snarled at me "I know you!" and started yelling at me.

Never met him before in my life. He was from London England. Apparently a tantric guru AND a kung fu instructor. Uh oh. . . I stopped and listened, certain this was a complete stranger. Completely baffled, I did the intelligent thing : I listened some more. He handed me his card, which mentioned London, his teaching credentials and so forth.

I said nothing, trying to get the measure of this fellow. My immediate thought was this : This is a formal challenge! Dont know why. He gave me his card, which means, classically, that he expects to duel!

Maybe this guy somehow didn't understand what he was literally saying by presenting me his card in a direct challenge. ( Even more absurd. And reckless: odds disfavor casual duellers. ) Soo. . his "kung fu" was ( unknowingly ) to call for a duel. MY kung fu was to not duel, and instead quietly walk away.

See how easy that was? The next step *could* have been for him to escalate, to grab at me for example. But no one gets to do that. Given the foolish presentation of the card, that means a full duel has begun, leaving me free to defend myself By Any Means Necessary. This is western law and also Buddhist law. I would have then fought this "fellow Buddhist guru", with a first goal of twisting his arm and forcing him to his knees. Some body parts would soon break, his and/ or mine. That's classical, it's called "trial by fire". The point is that the test is mutual, not a one way street!

All of this is encapsulated in the perspective of President Theodore Roosevelt, who said "Speak softly but carry a big stick." That is very classical Buddhist perspective in Tibet, China and Japan. In the Chinese Buddhist kung fu, we speak of the "peaceful warrior", who is
like "a well tempered sword wrapped in soft cloth".

A sword is a crucial metaphor. A sword can block many attacks. A sword can also maim and destroy adversaries. So the etiquette is to not jump a swordsman, whether you are unarmed or whether you are a swordsman. In a real swordfight, your chances of dying are one in three or even two in three. Often both swordsmen die. The basic rule of thumb therefore is: Don't fight unless absolutely necessary, then fight to decisive victory.

This guy from London - a fellow tantric Buddhist guru - somehow thought he was a samurai and I was a peasant. He thought wrong. I saw him many months later at the same temple - and he looked badly shaken up and extremely fearful of me, from eighty feet away. Why? Seems like the Guardians Upstairs ( like, say, Mahakala ) evidently decided to teach him a lesson.

There is also a woman teacher who falsely accused me of "not helping with the translation work." But she never sent me the texts to work on, and I never received them from anyone. What was the outcome? Well, she was very sick for a good many months. And she was a western medical professional to boot.

I distrust these two fellow Buddhist teachers twenty years later, and there has no apology to accept. Very simple, except I ended up with an undeserved bad reputation all the way across the Pacific, in Taiwan. Example: A PhD psychologist from Taipei gave me some grief and treated me with contempt over a dinner table in a Buddhist teacher's house! For a few minutes, anyway. But he didn't prove capable of a simple psychological intake nor did he set up an argument. It was just a knee jerk emotional attack.

So the moral here is simple: just because someone is a PhD psychologist or a Buddhist teacher, don't think they will never make stupid mistakes. They do. Real intelligence means not making the mistakes, like these people.

Therefore don't fear the Buddhists ( or anyone else, whatever they may be called ). Respect everyone to the extent called for, relying on caution and awareness and inner balance and integrity, not social positions.

You need not fear any kind of aggression from Buddhists, not physical aggression, not emotional aggression, not psychic aggression.

These levels of aggression are all pretty much nonexistent among Buddhists in my experience. And I have personally seen about 8,500 Buddhists. What kinds? Chinese, American, Vietnamese, Japanese, Native American Buddhist etc., since about 1980. Where? In Hawaii, on the West Coast from Los Angeles up through San Francisco, Seattle, and Vancouver BC. In Chicago, and in France, on a month long retreat.

I have yet to see or hear of a psychic attack or psychic aggression of any kind by any tantric Buddhist. Anywhere. In theory this *could* be a real concern, and in Tibet it really was: some Tibetans actually died as a result of pure psychic attacks or combat, Buddhist or non Buddhist Bonpo. This however is simply not a problem in the West.

Basically 99.9% of my experience tells me that Buddhists don't know how to fight, don't want to fight, and don't want to learn to fight. ( Big mistake, especially for women anywhere. ) I also have a definite sense that, overall, Buddhists don't really know how to argue effectively on the interpersonal level. When they argue, it is over abstract philosophy. Most traditional Buddhist culture is against public argumentation, and matters are resolved in private to "save face".

Despite your fear, there is basically no "pressure to assimilate" in Buddhist fellowships.

Major social psychology studies show that a conscious sense of "connectedness", of healthy community, is strongly predictive of a long and healthy life, no matter what your faith or social status. It's best to take an "ecological" perspective. See
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comm...psychology

At the same time, there are many great Buddhist practitioners and teachers who kept mostly to themselves and even spent most of their lives on strict retreat, alone or with a very few other practitioners, e.g. as in Shakespeare's outcasts found in "As You Like It", who are
"exempt from public haunt" and find "tongues in trees, books in the running brooks,
sermons in stones and good in everything".

Social or nonsocial - either way can work. But the point is to give oneself the choice, to consciously choose and not be psychologically limited or emotionally crippled by fear and doubt. The main priority is a positive one: make the best possible use of your time "to live for that which is highest in oneself and others".

For me that really means Mahayana in a literal sense, so community is critically important to me and I have to handle things very effectively. Otherwise my thirty years of practice is a complete waste, right?

Without Buddhist transmission and empowerment you cannot do any of the key yogas or inner practices. Lacking effective human contact there is no connection to the Mahayana Buddhist practice, nor even entrance to the basic outer sangha fellowship. To have no mahayana guru, means all the many books will be of no help : you cannot practice what is not transmitted.

The good news is that overall the western Buddhist communities are quickly evolving towards really healthy principles and models of sacred fellowship and practical co-operation. Western Buddhists are now far more articulate and psychologically capable than they were thirty years ago.

A key point is that western Buddhists strongly emphasize respect for women, and we have women teachers ( scholars and gurus ). This is a much better and more authentic version of Mahayana Buddhism than was typical of Asia, where dharma opportunities for most women were very meager: Confucian social forms and expectations pervaded Eastern Asia and most women were severely oppressed for close to two thousand years. It's different here!

Everything looks to be going in a good direction in the the West. I would say that we have evolved in a few decades to a sense of Buddhist community that took many generations in traditional Asian societies. And we are just beginning. There have been some severe problems in some Buddhist fellowships, but when the smoke clears these do not cripple the fellowships.

Yes, there is a lot of confusion about Buddhist doctrine among many inside and outside the refuge-holding sangha, but these points are easily addressed, and the Buddhist doctrine will not be lost to mass delusion and external belief systems. Instead, Buddhist teaching is working on society, through such teachers as the Dalai Lama, and others.

The simple and crucial issue and measure comes down to this: We are basically all new to the practice here in the West. We have therefore to prove ourselves to ourselves, to others, and to society. This means that people who claim to prioritize Mahayana Buddhism have to live it, they have to be functional, and the Buddhist fellowships have to prove their worth to society in order to last, to carry on.

This is very doable. It has everything to do with communication and co-operation and resources that cannot be taken for granted, but which must be cultivated.

At the same time, I would not say that Buddhists are in general "reliable and mature." Its not that I definitely distrust them as a group. Much experience has taught me the importance of NONTRUST. I short I don't expect problems from Buddhist individuals, but in my own life I expect little or nothing from them in the way of help or reciprocity.

I keep a personal list of Buddhists that I will not speak to nor help. The reasoning? The Apache ( American Indian tribe ) say "Do not help those who fail to help others." To this I would add "Do not help those who cause problems for others." If a claimed Buddhist is clearly disrespectful towards the Buddhist community, then for me to help that one is a fault in my Mahayana Buddhist vows, and self-contradictory, pure and simple. Better for me to help some one else instead.

Yes, most of history teaches us to be extremely wary of religious groups in general. Yes, much of the course of religious history is basically rivers of bloodshed and oppression and opposition to humanitarian values. But you simply cannot find much to blame in Buddhist history, or in western Buddhist fellowships in the new century. Buddhists are very quiet in terms of world political history. Mostly they have fled war and oppression. Extreme politics and cultural destruction are more found in Communism and Islam, not in Buddhist history.

Many basic issues that have really challenged western Buddhists in the last century have moved into the right tracks, quickly and effectively ( which is the opposite of China, Burma, Tibet and so forth ). Here in the West the Mahayana dharma is, overall, respected ( or at least peacebly ignored ) and not trashed by modern society. Buddhist fellowships and individuals are *not* being derailed, internally or externally. The western model of Buddhism is decidedly sane and multicultural, a real benefit to western society, well founded in both depth and breadth, and mostly functional. We'll show the whole world how it's done!

I can't tell you how crucially important this mostly functional western Buddhism is for the survival of Buddhist practice in the world today. We have so very much to be thankful for, and a lot to look forward to. Much more than you could think possible! I am *very* surprised and thankful to be able to say this, and I say it with *real* confidence born of experience and comparative history, not mere pious abstract faith.

In other words, don't be afraid. Instead, go with the Bard and
""Love all, trust a few. Do wrong to none."

I hope this helps you and others as general perspective and guidance. Sarva mangalam.

Long live the Mahayana!

KT, mage guardian, inner medical tantrika and so forth

From Shakespeare's "As You Like It", Act 2 Scene 1:

DUKE SENIOR

Now, my co-mates and brothers in exile,
Hath not old custom made this life more sweet
Than that of painted pomp? Are not these woods
More free from peril than the envious court?
Here feel we but the penalty of Adam,
The seasons' difference, as the icy fang
And churlish chiding of the winter's wind,
Which, when it bites and blows upon my body,
Even till I shrink with cold, I smile and say
'This is no flattery: these are counsellors
That feelingly persuade me what I am.'
Sweet are the uses of adversity,
Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous,
Wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life exempt from public haunt
Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks,
Sermons in stones and good in every thing.
I would not change it.

AMIENS

Happy is your grace,
That can translate the stubbornness of fortune
Into so quiet and so sweet a style.
posted by:
K
offline K
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  • K, very good to read this as a novice. Sangha is very new for me. Though a church culture here in the states for the most part, I had not ever grown accustomed to congregating for church or anything else, sports, politics. I always perceived gatherings, especially of the devotional sort, to be anathema to self-autonomy which I held in high esteem.

    Learning to let go of any ideas about myself or anything else has done wonders for getting me into the temple and among the sangha. I admit I'm often baffled over fellow sangha members behavior. Usually due to my own ideas about how a Buddhist "should" behave.

    Fact is we are human, not Buddhist. Buddhism is something we practice, not what we are. It's common sense to be courteous and cautious with one another.

    Always a pleasure to read your posts and comments. All the best to you, dear K.
  • Thank you K for that thought provoking essay.

    I can whole heartedly agree with most of what you say and am inspired by your positive attitude..

    there is one thing however, which troubles me a little.
    You declare active 'distrust' to specific individuals, you consider harmful to progress.. and you choose to ignore them as a concequence.

    Well, - it is of course a sad truth that some people are destructive, concious or even unconciously,- (setting aside that such judgements are merely subjective).
    While I can see that in a day to day setting it is a manageable and necessary conclusion/course of action, -I do not think that it is actually very progressive and positive.
    In an ideal world it would be better if we actually spent time with individuals we consider 'on the wrong path' to let them benefit from our positivity and influence. At least try and challenge their view by means of a good example and a different point of view..
    Only then can we hope to cause a shift..

    By simply ignoring a person/action we consider 'unhealthy' or 'negative', you are in effect supporting it.

    In an ideal world we can have both, the sanctuary of a life without toxic influences,- and an opportunity to pass on some of our nourished self,- or influence others who are on a destructive/negative path.
    To find the right balance for this is highly individual, and in my experience can fluctuate..

    But leaders such as Dalai Lama can demonstrate persistent and consistent effort to influence while having a life style that nourishes his own strength to keep rubbing shoulders with powerful forces against positivity..
    In the right environment, this can be possible and is indeed very powerful in a positive way..

    I wish for all of us that we can find that sanctuary 'away from it all' be it in your own living room or in the 'woods' as in Shakespeares play..- and for all of us, that some of us have the strength to pass some of this positivity on to those that are spinning in the opposite direction..- to try and slow it down or maybe even change its course..
    I wish we can all find our own balance for the two..
    • K
      K
      offline 139

      My thanks to Embrace and Mrs. Purple.

      You are both articulate and thoughtful.

      The mahayana context of tantra and "Tibetan Buddhism" is crucially important. Trust and communication and co-operation are extremely high priorities, and they require care and caution.

      For several reasons I think my post was important and valuable and helpful, in establishing the issue and providing a clear and careful examination of it. It took a long time ( measured in years ) for me to be able to express myself on this matter in a balanced fashion.

      This was also posted to tribe Crossroads of Religion and received a thank you there. My approach is to build bridges. It is working to a significant extent.

      KT



      Re Moki on tribe Crossroads of Religion:
      "Thank you for sharing your experience. I am listening. "

      Hi Moki. Thanks for patiently listening.
      This is real depth and breadth of experience. The issues are in fact very general.
      Even though the Dalai Lama is well known and much respected, it does *not* follow that anyone would want to try to actually go forward and try to personally engage anyone or anything Buddhist. This is especially true with regard to Tibetan Buddhism, due to the profound cultural differences and so forth.

      On the basic level, I am making an argument that "you can come on in, the water is fine."
      On another level, I am giving the key guidance that one should
      "Love All, Hurt No One, Trust A Few".
      This approach is balanced and practical.

      There is a tremendous amount of Buddhist teaching and practice going on here in the West, but very few people know about it, or how to approach it. This is very unfortunate, because the Buddhist teaching is rich and diverse and important in many ways, for many kinds of people.

      Because you have thanked me publically here, a good bridge has been established between this tribe and western Buddhists generally. That really means something. Especially since other than myself, there is no Buddhist representation on tribe Crossroads of Religion.

      Again, my work here is to build bridges. I am not particularly selling anything. Buddhist practice is something that happens in one's own mind and heart and practice. It is a vehicle, not a fixed dogma per se.

      Best,
      KT





      • K
        K
        offline 139
        Re Mrs P:

        "By simply ignoring a person/action we consider 'unhealthy' or 'negative', you are in effect supporting it."

        This is a very important point. It is or can be true on several very important levels. It is *not* always true.

        Not to decide is to decide. Not to act is to act. Not to speak is to speak. . . . .OR, we can sometimes *defer* decision, action, and/ or speech.

        It is quite common for classical and authentic Buddhist teachers and lineages to be treated like dirt, openly, and on Buddhist or other tribes or listservs.

        Regarding "fellowship", I am reminded of the movie Casablanca:

        "You came for the waters? But there are no waters in Casablanca. We're in a desert here!"
        "I was misinformed."

        Back in 2000 I saw the following on a Tibetan tantra listserv on yahoo : a full frontal attack on Guru Padmasambhava. The unsupported statement was that the Great Adept / Mahasiddha Guru Padmasambhava was not from India nor a holder of Mahayana Buddhist lineage, but rather a practitioner of West African voodoo.

        If that were true, then Guru Padmasambhava would be performing a lot of animal sacrifice of pigeons and so forth, as the West African voodoo-ists always do. Furthermore, many of the primary practices that descend from Padmasambhava, such as Dzogchen and Vajrakilaya and Guhyagarbha, would be fraudulent, and so the Nyingma and Sakya and Kagyu schools would be hopelessly compromised.

        In that year, one person made the attack. One hundred people, including the two moderators, made no response. I was the only one to defend Guru Padmasambhava, and I did diplomatically and authentically, by giving classical Guru Padmasambhava teaching.

        This fellow, a Brazilian and vain pseudo-scholar of a reactionary Tibetan subschool, was later thrown off the yahoo listserv, after he apologized. But no one else challenged him, not even the so called "moderators". That means the moderators were unwilling/ unable to defend their own primary guru, the Dalai Lama, who does in fact give the claimed voodoo empowerment of Ashtanga Maha Guru Padmasambhava, which is of course anything but voodoo.

        I defend the Mahayana dharma, but this is one clear example of a whole group of "highest yogatantra" initiates who lack all ability to engage each other, to engage even mean and bogus attacks on primary lineage holders, including their own teachers! Can these people chant their way out of a wet paper bag? Most unlikely. Most unlikely.

        As for myself, I defend and uphold a lot of Buddhist teachers, against "Buddhists" and non-Buddhists and pseudo-Buddhists alike.

        On one major tribe, several people have said "Buddhist refuge is a mistake." And why? Because, in one of the foolish moderator claims, Guru Sakyamuni is merely a myth, he never actually existed. In point of fact, as I responded on that thread, on that pseudo-Buddhist tribe, Guru Sakyamuni taught for fifty years: his life story is very detailed and complete and academically acknowledged worldwide for all eighty years.

        I have defended Sakyamuni Buddha, Guru Padmasambhava, and the native American woman Lama Dhyani Ywahoo ( who is both Drikung Kagyu and Nyingma, and with whom I have studied ).

        There is one Chinese Buddhist in the Far East who has, through the internet, singlehandledly tried to excommunicate stacks of Buddhist groups, at least forty. He is clearly against His Holiness Dudjom Rinbochay, Lama Tharchin, Orgyen Dorje Den San Francisco and another whole group of tantric Buddhists numbering about four or five million legitimate practitioners. But I have very effectively supported all these, and these are the people who are going to win, not their detractors and would-be opponents. The Dharma is more effective that the poisoned pen.

        Anyway this Chinese fellow, who has some real connections to Tibetan tantra, is mainly a real problem, because he is a major player on e-sangha, which has foolishly attempted to arrogate to itself the right to determine who is and who is not "legitimate" in lineage and authenticity. They will lose, and they will be left behind. Take any one hundred e-sangha members - especially the moderators - and my tantric empowerments leave theirs behind. I have seen their posts, and they are often extremely weak in key respects, guessing and guessing wrong.

        My many detailed and comprehensive tribe posts on Mahamudra and Atiyoga leave all their threads and discussions far far behind. Somebody has to know how this stuff works. Being foul mouthed, mean-spirited and failing to use evidence based reasoning just does not cut it.

        I cannot address these people directly. If I could, I could straighten out many key matters. but I can provide work arounds, so that others will not fall into the traps of ignorance, hostility, divisiveness, and pseudo-royal pride. Emotional poisons and ignorant aggression in the public sphere certainly damage and sometimes even seem to destroy the [ coherence and respect required of the ] Mahayana.

        This does weaken and contaminate the work of the Mahayana teachers, and it is a primary violation of the Mahayana to try to damage and destroy sangha relations. I am thinking in particular of a western New School guru on the East Coast. And I have many major transmissions in the Sakya school which he cannot have, including some from HH the late Chojay Trichen Rinbochay.

        This year I have been repeatedly defending HH the Dalai Lama on several tribes, against a bloodthirsty Communist, who promotes a pseudo-academic claim that Tibet was only a feudal slave state, and that the Tibetan lama hierarchy were only cruel lords and masters of a backward serfdom. I therefore have defended the Mahayana in Old Tibet, and attacked Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and so forth in extended exchanges.

        I do not "ignore" these public controversies. I fight and I win. On tribe.net, the Buddhists win big, and the genocidal Communist supporters lose, through my dialectics. Check out the Green Party tribe and the Peace tribe and so forth to see for yourself.

        Be advised that I am basically the primary outreach person for the current Dalai Lama world tour, putting the word out to over thirty tribes and over thirty thousand people on these tribes.

        I have defended and promoted Padmasambhava and HH the Dalai Lama. These two are also my direct teachers, and to fail to do so, like so many of these so-called "Tibetan Buddhists", would make me as useless and/ or unworthy as the general run of claimed Buddhists and "tantrikas". In other words,
        The Light In The Darkness Shall Shine!

        There are attacks on me as well, one being that since I quote Shakespeare, I [ somehow ] cannot be a tantric guru. How bizarre!

        Here is my answer, in two parts

        1) Juliet, in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet

        "Love give me strength, and strength shall help afford."

        2) The Dalai Lama, in his recent book The Middle Way, page 2

        "Love builds inner strength."

        This is in fact the real teaching. Not that I've seen many people get this, but in fact pure love and kindness and compassion are the real keys to health and happiness and relationship, and indeed to the Mahayana. Doesn't mean everything turns out right, but without kindness and compassion, we lose touch with ourselves and with humanity, and that is the greatest loss.

        So I will stick with Shakespeare and the Dalai Lama, and those who dislike them, or seek to "delegitimize" them, are encouraged to sit and spin. Simply put,
        With Love of the Mahayana Comes a Fierce Responsibility.

        Real nobility and courage require devotion and commitment and a profound sense of responsibility. To lack these qualities is to be weak, and unable to rise to the challenges and tests of being a true human, of being Mahayana. I am Responsible and Able, and I can handle any hundred of these people at a time. I work in a very different category, and on an inner level I am a "first responder."

        Every claimed Buddhist counts, it is said, But Not Always To Ten.
        As for myself, I am a clearly Defender of The Mahayana Law. It is evident all over the map, all over the internet.

        I am reminded of two statements regarding Buddhists and/ or the internet.
        One is
        "I'm on the team and I work alone."

        The other is from Frank Herbert, in the novel "Dune" :
        "Yea, go I forth to my work like a wild ass into the desert."

        KT

        • K
          K
          offline 139
          Re Embrace:
          "I admit I'm often baffled over fellow sangha members behavior."

          Well then, Embrace, you perceive and understand the basic issue. A lot of times, what Buddhists say and do makes little or no sense in any context.

          In short, it makes sense to be baffled by the behavior of sangha members from time to time.
          If you were not baffled, or anyone else were not baffled, that indicates not paying attention!

          Clear, well-grounded step-by-step communication is essential. For us all, really.
          We don't have to "judge" others, but we must maintain critical awareness.

          KT

          • This is an interesting topic. I've had to think a lot about interacting with a particular aggression in my sangha. We have one woman who appears to have an untreated mental disorder and directs her paranoia and alternating delusions of grandeur mostly at the young women in the sangha. At this point new women to the sangha are warned to be wary of her; unfortunately, this woman is a major translator and difficult to extract from the body of the organization.

            Like all the other young women at my sangha, I too have had my run in with her. She is difficult to handle as she does not play by societal norms and her powers of manipulation are off the chart. I was trained to be "nice, warm and friendly." But, I've found that I have to cut that impulse off when this woman attempts to engage with me. It's a difficult situation and one I have not really figured out how to deal with. Though I must say I am truly in touch with my aggression when she is around; it flares like a bright, hot torch.
            • K
              K
              offline 139

              Hi Sarah.

              Breathe deeply.

              Maintain your personal center.

              Focus and clarity.

              I know these things can be tough. There are inner and outer methods. The basic topic to look up is called
              "Boundaries Management".

              At least you're not dealing with true out-and-out maniacs or religious extremists, individually or collectively. It could be worse. We could be at Microsoft. Or, we could be in the Middle East. So, suffering is relative.

              You have my best wishes. Keep your chin up and your head down. ;-)

              KT
            • Watch Yo Self

              Sun, October 18, 2009 - 5:57 AM
              Why do you want to extract this lady from body of the organization? Without her you would have to become a "mad translator" yourself to fill in the gaps! You should respect and love her for being a vital part of your "body of the organization"! The particular aggression in your sangha is quenched when you learn that it is not her that makes aggressions flare like a bright torch it is YOU and your association with this self doing this.
              Maybe her "paranoia" is really justified? Or maybe it is just your own paranoia? People can find justifications for all kinds of horrible things! Like kicking out translators from sangha for instance. Maybe we are all mentally ill except for buddhas? Perhaps all these things?

              • Re: Watch Yo Self

                Sun, October 18, 2009 - 6:00 AM
                *I was trained to be "nice, warm and friendly."*
                Maybe she is the greatest bodhisattva master you are ever likely to meet trying to break your old mold of "training" for a new one?
              • Re: Watch Yo Self

                Sun, October 18, 2009 - 2:25 PM
                No one wants to stop her from translating, just stop her from hurting people and that means limiting her managing/board powers (not her translation skills). I never suggested kicking her out of the sangha.

                I would question it being my paranoia if it was only me. And I have no problem owning my own aggression in this, otherwise I would not have brought it up Yogi.

                The question for me has been how to deal with my own aggression compassionately towards myself. If I have to let go of social norms, then I am stepping across ingrained boundaries. That's fine, but it changes me and I like to understand or examine that change.

                Swallowing your type of pill "you yourself are the one to blame" is not helpful. Saying "we are all mentally ill" is the pot calling the kettle black. Cliched and unhelpful. Around our sangha she is called a wrathful dakini...again completely unhelpful.

                If the answer to the problem is learning to be skillful, mindful and direct then I would say that this dakini experiment has had some effect. If the experience was to show me how to "love and respect" someone that lost my respect and does not generate feelings of love in me, then I can spend some time with her in refuge, putting my "enemy" in front of me as I bow down to the refuge tree. But I won't be a "holier than thou" Buddhist putting on a make-believe show for the world. I am being honest about my aggression and outright dislike of her character and showing my bafflement with how to deal with the ensuing emotional pain that arises from these negative feelings. Things don't go away because we wish them away or ignore them or tell ourselves lies about how we should see a situation, and in my mind the Buddhist way is about becoming honest with ourselves.
                • Re: Watch Yo Self

                  Sun, October 18, 2009 - 11:50 PM
                  Hey Sarah,
                  I know that you are suffering and I am sorry for slapping your sunburn. I was just giving you a supposed extreme on the other side for bounce back middle way. I am sorry that I assumed a bit but I wasn't serious anyway. I just know what it is like to be lynched by strange mob mentality for a wrong view that they may have, not saying your situation is such.
                  Don't allow yourself to be vulnerable for damage. Being "loving" when it is "trained" and not "genuine" can kill you! And being genuine can kill you too! I wish you infinite blessings for skillful means in dealing with this formidable teacher. If you are genuine she will transform trust me!
                  Just one thing, examine deeply the moment she became the "enemy". Was it really harmful other than to ego? What was her fault? A lack of "love"? She might need some then!
                  love and light my friend,
                  nyonpa
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Watch Yo Self

                    Mon, October 19, 2009 - 1:09 PM
                    What is love? It is like asking, what is compassion?

                    I honestly cannot say what she needs. From a Chinese medical point of view, I would diagnose that the demons are feeding on her flesh. Resolve the ancestral ghosts and the demons will leave her alone. It's rumored she was worse in her youth and her years of Dharma service and practice have softened her; this translates to me to mean that some resolution has taken place.

                    Eiya! "It's not easy being green." I love being human, but it sure is difficult.
                    • .

                      Mon, October 19, 2009 - 7:54 PM
                      Love is patiently waiting on someone as if they were the most dear part of yourself.
                      That is what I think anyway, I could be wrong.
                      Learning for me isn't fun and easy either, I always learn the hard and unpleasant way. Maybe if it was easy it wouldn't be valued and regarded with such certainty.
                      • Re: .

                        Mon, October 19, 2009 - 7:55 PM
                        We all have ghosts and demons within except for the exalted ones.
                        • Re: .

                          Tue, October 20, 2009 - 1:17 PM
                          "We all have ghosts and demons within except for the exalted ones." Thanks for bringing that up Yogi. The problem with glib Buddhist rhetoric is that it doesn't solve problems. Buddhist medicine doctors don't treat tendonitis with rituals for tossing out demons, and likewise treating this woman for tendonitis when she has demons eating her flesh would be inappropriate.

                          But here I am feeling aggressive again. Hi, my name is Sarah, I am aggressive when people use glib Buddhist statements to answer questions. For example, this summer I found myself listening to a middle aged woman with three young children discuss her mouse problem to a group of nuns. She said every morning when she woke up she spent two hours cleaning down all the counters in the house because the mice had run around and shit over everything. Finally after much thought and concern for the mice (she tried every option for removing the mice without killing them), she went ahead and had the house exterminated. Her care and concern for her small children with little immune systems was the love of a mother. The nuns nodded in sympathy, some even discussed their own infestation problems. None of them judged her.

                          Suddenly one sanga member pipped up and started to list off all the lamas she had heard tell it was sinful and evil to kill any living thing. When I asked her what this woman should have done, she said, "She should not have killed them! Buddhists don't kill other living things--the lamas make it clear that to kill will bring very bad karma."

                          Again, I asked, what should she have done? "She should have moved!" I was baffled, what kind of answer is that? She has three kids, strapped for cash, and she's suppose to move? What if the next place has a mouse problem? And was this woman suggesting the mother leave the problem of killing the mice to the next people who move in? Is that how Buddhists solve their problems?

                          Sorry Yogi, I didn't mean to go off on you per se, your comment just fit this dialog of dealing with sangha. I wonder though, is there a way we can temper these types of comments?
                          • Nice to meet you !

                            Tue, October 20, 2009 - 1:57 PM
                            I am sure you could find a way to temper any comment you want but it would still be glib until you really examine the depths yourself and find out what makes you not a buddhist. Thats what I do to keep in check. Keeps you from being truly glib for real. I have been an angry person so I know from experience anger is a sure way to stay shallow and is a sign of weakness of intelligence, maybe that is why my comments strike you as "glib".
                            ;)
                            Joy for "self" is what love is for most. This is unending saga of sad business.
                            Sorry for striking you as a "cheesy" buddhist, it is because of my bad karma.
                            • Re: Nice to meet you !

                              Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:17 PM
                              Alright, you got me to laugh!
                              • K
                                K
                                offline 139

                                Re: Real dharma solves problems

                                Fri, October 23, 2009 - 7:58 AM
                                Re Sarah:
                                "The problem with glib Buddhist rhetoric is that it doesn't solve problems."

                                Yes. This is importantly true. Good reminder, Sarah. Thanks for that.

                                From the yogic tradition of kundalini yoga:
                                "In the final analysis, all talk is worthless. It is only exact practice that yields a result."

                                That's why we do breath practices and mantras and TCM and so forth. Talk by itself is very cheap.

                                KT
                                • Yeah KT NO IDLE SPEECH!!!

                                  Tue, October 27, 2009 - 12:59 PM
                                  You fellow chattering monkey in a black cap!
                                  • K
                                    K
                                    offline 139

                                    Re Yogi:
                                    "Yeah KT NO IDLE SPEECH!!!Yesterday, 12:59 PM
                                    You fellow chattering monkey in a black cap! "

                                    KT responds:

                                    I promoted the 2009 Dalai Lama tour on over fifty tribes, when no one else here did.

                                    I have also put word out on many Tibetan Buddhist teachers on many tribes this year and last, when no one else supported these teachers.

                                    Such efforts are not "idle speech". They are core classical Mahayana, not "monkeying around".

                                    Moderator, the previous post is abusive and actionable. Specifically, it goes against the Ten Precepts of Buddhist Refuge. Just so you know. And that you can print.

                                    KT

                                    . . . although I do like The Monkees.

                                    ;-)

                                    • He may have been kidding. Let's not get too defensive.
                                      • Well, my fellow sangha crazy woman has gone and burned another young female woman. Since she never plays the same game twice, it's so hard to see it coming. I told the young woman I'd take her out for a beer and we could laugh about the pain. Lol, perhaps we could become the sado-masochist sangha with this woman dishing out the pain and the rest of us learning to like it.

                                        Dark. My humor has turned a bit dark on this one. Oh, well. Time to clean dishes, recite a few mantras.
                                      • I was just playing you shakespeare yodeling silly goose! Fruitful doesn't necessarily mean good..... especially when it is from phoney with no understanding of bodhicitta who claims to be a guru!
                                        (And no KT I am not just sore that you don't want to be my friend.)
                                        • "Fruitful doesn't necessarily mean good......especially when it is from phoney with no understanding of bodhicitta who claims to be a guru! "

                                          I have no idea what you're talking about.

                                          It's weird how I can read something over and over and still not understand a word. Each word individually, yes, strung together in this particular sentence, no. Please clarify what you are talking about. Go ahead and be plain and simple so I can follow along.
                                          • I will admit that KT is very knowledgeable and I appreciate his contributions sincerely! Wrongfully I feel it is my duty to make him show his flaws when it actually comes to applying dharma in real life like this chat. I have been very harmed by fake gurus and want to protect others. I wasn't trying to hurt his feelings, I was trying to give him a chance to show his knowledge and skill in application. I admit it is for my own selfish reasons sometimes more than protecting others perhaps to renew or restore my faith in a living guru?
                                            Do not lie is an important precept.

                                            • The "Monkees" are the fake "Beetles" by the way.
                                              :)
                                              • K
                                                K
                                                offline 139

                                                Re another false statement from Ryan, to wit:

                                                "Personally I think the "Ven. Acharya" just wants to distance himself from remarks like claiming he has "collected more Padmasambava mantras than any human being in history."

                                                Another very very bad mistake from Ryan. Reminds me of what Napolean said :
                                                Never interrupt an enemy whne he is in the process of destroying himself.

                                                Just so all here understand the issue: I certainly never said anything like that. One of the big problems here is that Ryan Parker is unable to read and/ or understand and/ or honestly discuss simple English statements. I have seen this over and over and over again.

                                                I have said this: I KT have received authorizations for eighty ( 80 ) distinct mantras for Guru Padmasambhava. This is a clear and objective statement, and it is either true or false. Now compare my ( factual or nonfactual ) statement with the bizarre rewrite from Ryan Parker, who Clearly has such serious problems with English dialogue!

                                                What is wrong with this picture? This one instance should tell everyone present where the problem lies. And that is leaving alone the "problem" of whether I have some kind of unspecified type of hatred for . . . what . . . a BILLION people?

                                                I don't think Ryan Parker can count up to eighty, much less figure out what a billion means. Eighty is a specific number, not a general upper limit ( for Padmasambhava mantras ) beyond "any human being in history". We'll have to teach him how to manage numbers like eighty before we even begin to explain to Ryan what a billion means.

                                                In this case and in others I Am Glad to see this ( nonsense from Ryan Parker ) over and over and over again. These are all Straw Dog arguments, Ad Hominem arguments, and cheap attacks that do not begin to hold up. I am ashamed for the western Mahayana that we all have to put up with ignorant and aggressive people, and Ryan Parker has proven himself to be a real prize.

                                                Don't worry about the eighty Padmasambhava mantras, Ryan. Worry about the Ten Precepts, as in False Speech, Harsh Speech, Confused Speech, and so forth.

                                                Once again, for the the nth time, I never ever claimed to be a Tibetan lama, which type of lineage Ryan the Ignorant repeatedly demands that I document. I made it clear that many tantric lineages are not Tibetan, and Ryan never got that. Obviously he has never heard of Japan, China, Bhutan, Nepal, Mongolia, and other major areas of Tantric Mahayana, as I have repeatedly pointed out. Ryan is, as I have said before, clueless with regard to Mahayana history. So he may try many times to act like a Security Troll, but actually lacks that title. Troll will have to do.

                                                We are all glad to hear that some people ( like Ryan Parker on tribe Buddhism ) will have no response to ( and therefore no problem whatsoever with ) the repeated and final destruction of the great Buddhist university of Nalanda, that he finds the Islamic destruction of Nalanda ( and maybe the Taliban & Co generally ) to be reasonable representations of "faith".

                                                I never said a billion people go around attacking and destroying universities or cities and so forth. But organized religious war parties do. And that is an issue. It is a Clear and Present Danger. I suppose some of you have come across BBC News and or CNN. Maybe you have heard of chronic strife in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and the destruction of unarmed Muslim women and children there.

                                                I side with Sting:
                                                There is no religion in the path of hatred.

                                                Ryan Parker is certainly entitled to his own opinion on this, no matter how ignorant and far removed from the Mahayana. He can go on attacking those who, like myself, voice concerns over the destruction of whole universtities in the name or religious faith. But that is not anything like a Buddhist compatible opinion, or a humanitarian or peaceful perspective. That is a pro-Islamic and in particular a pro- Jihad opinion.

                                                He is also entitled to his bizarre and unsupported opinion that Buddhists should not quote Shakespeare, that my doing so in particular somehow marks me as non-Buddhist or false to the Mahayana. Maybe he thinks drinking milk is equally suspect for a Buddhist practitioner or guru, that drinking milk would indicate a breach of Mahayana precepts.

                                                Personally, I would think that quoting Shakespeare ( or drinking milk for that matter ) would be far more reasonable ( and congenial for Buddhists in general ) than passing over the issue I raised to pro-Islamist Ryan on tribe Buddhism : the destruction of Nalanda University by Islamist armies.

                                                I have been attacked by Ryan Parker on a number of unrelated Buddhist and non-Buddhist threads. He has repeatedly said he suspects me of "being a liar". Well, that would be a significant stement if he had bothered to qualify the charge, or to present any evidence to support the claim. But he's just shooting blanks.

                                                I did say I have 80 Padmasambhava mantras, eighty empowerments of Highest Yoga Tantra Vajrasattva, that I have received major cycles of transmission from primary lineage holders of Tibetna tantra and so forth. I did say I had completed ten thousand hours of tantric Buddhist mantra.

                                                So the question returns to Ryan Parker - which of those clear and definite statements is false? I can assure everyone present that this fellow has not been following me around for the past thirty years. He can't even figure out what I'm saying, he cannot attack any of my many Buddhist teaching reference articles online, nor find fault with any of my tribe.net work on behalf of all these major Tibetan teachers.

                                                All my dharma teaching work online these last two years, and for many major Buddhist gurus, still stands, In Entirety. Ryan Parker has had many many opportunities to find fault with the content or communication of this my Mahayana dharma, and he has completely failed to do so, at all times, in all places, and in all respects. I have built many strong bridges of communication between the tribes, and Ryan Parker has been unable to begin to tear down a single one.

                                                I have defended the Dalai Lama ( against Commmunist criticism ) on a number of tribes. I have defended both Sakyamuni and the Dalai Lama on tribe Buddhism. I'm on the team and I work alone.

                                                This is the real teaching. Now you know.

                                                As for Ryan Parker, I am reminded of the statement that
                                                Everyone counts, not always to ten.

                                                KT
                                                inner medical tantrika and dagger priest

                                                • LOVE

                                                  Fri, October 30, 2009 - 11:13 AM
                                                  I love you KT and I hope that you will exscuse me for poking you with a stick! I "challenge" you out of my own insecurities that you remind me of from past experience with a faulty teacher as I am sure you can tell. So it is nothing personal. And really as you know from studying buddhism, nothing is personal except liberation! I don't believe you are a liar. Just make mistakes like most humans. When you say things like you growled nose-to-nose and psychically scarred a 17 year old girl rightly for months because she was a stranger and rude to you, It doesn't make you seem kind.
                                                  • Re: LOVE

                                                    Fri, October 30, 2009 - 11:34 AM
                                                    KT,
                                                    You are very valuable! You don't have to just be a representative of His Holiness Dalai Lama for importance!
                                                    nyonpa
                                                  • LOVE

                                                    Fri, October 30, 2009 - 12:56 PM
                                                    You are a good teacher. You stir the pot. You make folks think. I had imagined if you had psychically attacked my daughter in a holy spiritual place as the authority..... it stirred some horribly negative emotions in me! I have much work to do in terms of proper view! But even Marpa was rattled when his son died. His disciples complained that he wasn't practicing what he taught in terms of illusion. He replied that this was super-illusion.
                                                • KT and Ryan, please message one another with the more personal stuff. I for one don't want to see you two go back and forth. Take it outside.

                                                  I have no doubt you can work out your differences in private.

                                                  Much love and respect,

                                                  embrace
                                                  • A few apologies and a clarification

                                                    Fri, October 30, 2009 - 1:36 PM
                                                    Embrace has again shown that she consistently manifests more wisdom that myself.

                                                    Let me apologize to this group, and to Ngakpa Bill and Embrace especially. I am honestly sorry I dragged the discussion down to this level with my unthinking and snide remark.

                                                    Please, let me also apologize to KT for repeatedly requesting that he provide information about his status as a guru. I have learned (on my own) that KT is indeed an authorized teacher of the “True Buddha School” of Grand Master Lu. My apologies for any implications my repeated requests may have made. It is clear that you are a recognized guru of that tradition. I will not ever question you on that issue again.

                                                    I also apologize for the inadvisable use of the word “hate” in another tribe. In the past, I perceived (what seemed like) a lot of hostility towards certain groups. However, I can’t see into anyone’s heart, and have no way to tell how they really feel. I have certainly shown hostility towards people I definitely don’t hate. I've even done so to some I love. So, I had no right to jump to the conclusion that KT “hates” those groups. KT, I am sorry for this unfair characterization. I hope you will forgive me, and that we can both move on.

                                                    I will now drop this topic except to make one single clarification.

                                                    KT said:
                                                    “another false statement from Ryan, to wit: "Personally I think the "Ven. Acharya" just wants to distance himself from remarks like claiming he has "collected more Padmasambava mantras than any human being in history." ...Another very very bad mistake from Ryan. ...

                                                    Just so all here understand the issue: I certainly never said anything like that.

                                                    I have said this: I KT have received authorizations for eighty ( 80 ) distinct mantras for Guru Padmasambhava. This is a clear and objective statement, and it is either true or false. Now compare my ( factual or nonfactual ) statement with the bizarre rewrite from Ryan Parker, who Clearly has such serious problems with English dialogue!”

                                                    My statement was a characterization of what KT said -from memory- which was less that perfect.. Below is a direct quote of the original statement from 2004. I offer it as clarification and *without comment*.

                                                    “I have about fifty basic mantras for Padmasambhava, more than almost anyone in human history.”

                                                    Best Regards,
                                                    Ryan
                                                    • Re: A few apologies and a clarification

                                                      Fri, October 30, 2009 - 8:37 PM
                                                      Thanks everyone...this too shall pass.

                                                      You are ALL great and ALL in my practice.

                                                      Ema Ho!!

                                                      ....a couple malas of Vajrasattvas wouldnt hurt though if so inclined :)
                                                      • K
                                                        K
                                                        offline 139

                                                        Re: Tulku CP

                                                        Tue, November 3, 2009 - 11:24 AM
                                                        Re Tulku CP
                                                        " I have been very harmed by fake gurus and want to protect others. I wasn't trying to hurt his feelings,"

                                                        I am very sorry to hear you have been harmed by fake gurus, TCP. It does happen and it is a real issue.

                                                        I know of one real guru who broke a young woman's mind. He was a very Real and Effective yoga master, and also power tripping. Her life was basically destroyed, but then again she was always an off kilter messed up person, so they brought out the worst in each other.

                                                        There are quite a few effective practices and healing methods for working through these kinds of claimed-guru traumas. In any event, we must keep in mind the basic teaching of Guru Sakyamuni to Be A Light Unto Ourselves, and to be Our Own Refuge.

                                                        It is possible to do a really good, high-powered yoga practice or tai chi cpractice, etc., without having anything to do with gurus. Sometimes it is very important and helpful to get away from people in general, to have some personal meditation practice by oneself alone.

                                                        It is possible to take some high level tantric Buddhist empowerments and practice basically by oneself, without any complications of relating to a guru, lineage, sangha, or unbalanced Buddhists. I practice mostly by myself, and occasionally venture out to take more transmissions.

                                                        My way of protecting others from bad dharma and messed up claimed-gurus is to show them the Real Stuff. Real dharma books, real lineage holders and real tantric empowerments. I have supported many teaching lineages of all four Tibetan schools on tribe dot net in the last several years.

                                                        This is the real protection. It is also the real and enduring bridge to tantric practice.

                                                        As to worrying about hurting my feelings, don't worry at all. You do puzzle me TCP. It's true you thanked me for some discussion, then mocked me as being ignorant and a prude - don't know why - and then sent me a tribe friend invite. All in a day or so. I just chalk all that up to your own working through stuff. To me that is all just wind in the trees, and not a tornado per se.

                                                        The problem that I ( as a mahayana and tantric guru ) have to deal with is the "Buddhism" tribe on tribe dot net. That is, 1600 people, almost no known mahayanists, and a moderator who is against Buddhist refuge and also the Dalai Lama. They think posting a Buddhist teaching event is anti-social!

                                                        That domain is my problem, my difficult row to hoe. I have a job to do. I can't let my personal feelings affect this work, you know?

                                                        KT

                                                        "I too am a steward"
                                                        Gandalf the Grey
                                                        • Tashi Delek!

                                                          Wed, November 4, 2009 - 8:18 AM
                                                          KT,
                                                          Your speculations are correct, I appreciate your wisdom. Sorry for adding and causing more confusion the exact thing I was "mocking". I am like a crazy "drunk" trying to "help". Please accept my apology, reflecting maybe I was trying to hurt your feelings, misery likes company. I am glad you were able to see this and deflect my silly insults.
                                                          Sincerely trying to become a good buddhist, when I am sincerely NOT still.
                                                          Bows in humble gratitude.
                                                          :)
                                                          nyonpa
                                                          • K
                                                            K
                                                            offline 139
                                                            Re Tulku CP:
                                                            "I don't believe you are a liar. Just make mistakes like most humans."

                                                            I appreciate that, Tulku CP. In a word, yes.

                                                            In fact, my transmissions, teachers, practices and reference books are far better documented than any other tantric Buddhist on tribe.net. The ten thousand hour mantra "flight hours" I claim is something definite, either it is a valid statement or not.

                                                            If not, I would be making a serious lie and therefore breaking high tantric vows to, ohh, about sixty two major gurus ( many of them principal lineage holders, abbots, and so forth ). Anyway, it is a basic claim of relevance and credibility, particularly given the seriousness of upholding tantric vows.

                                                            What is surprising is that on tribe Buddhism I keep hearing that I am not Buddhist at all, from for example from Mickey Mouse, who is in fact a former moderator of Tribe Atheism and a pronounced anti-Buddhist.

                                                            There are a fair number of such people to deal with. I sometimes work across fifty or more tribes to put out a Buddhist announcement or teaching, and there are some determined trolls out there.

                                                            Of course, trolls come with the territory, and that is fine. Having a long running argument with a Chinese Communist / anti- Dalai Lama guy is not troll fighting. It's just reasoned discussion with someone who prefers repeated genocide to feudal Buddhism. That's not the problem.

                                                            The problem is that in working with the public one has to establish and maintain some definite credibility, and cross-tribe troll attacks can become serious.

                                                            There is an anti-Buddhist troll on tribe Buddhadharma, named Ralphie.

                                                            He needs to be dealt with. Specifically, his unsupported attacks on a Buddhist tribe set an extremely bad precedent. Left unanswered, these attacks clearly open the way to attacks on all Buddhists on all Buddhist tribes and/ or Buddhist posts on tribe.net.

                                                            Where I seek to build useful and helpful bridges of communication between numerous tribes, Ralphie is determined to pollute and destroy such communication.

                                                            See for example
                                                            meditationclub.tribe.net/threa...33aa59
                                                            and
                                                            tribes.tribe.net/buddhadha...3e466f1174

                                                            Ralphie has the right to be anti-Shakyamuni Buddha, to sneer at the Dalai Lama and speak against mantra practice in general. I don't have a problem with any of that per se, any more than I have a problem discussing the relative merits of Buddhist societies in Asia with someone who supports genocidal Communism in China, Tibet, Cambodia.

                                                            It's all about free speech and open discussion to compare perspectives, right?

                                                            But there is another, more fundamental problem: laying false charges, bearing false witness, slander and libel against others in a public forum where political and cultural issues need to be thrashed out. Such abuse destroys the basis of communication altogether, and prevents one side from putting forward their case.

                                                            When I put forward a case for the Dalai Lama, or anything else that is classical Mahayana, and responds ( as above ) to vicious ad hominem attacks that I am ( somehow ) a liar, this must not be viewed as a heated personal argument.

                                                            Instead, it must be understood that the person who makes the claim or attack against another's integrity is required to back that up with some evidence or reasoning. Which of course Ralphie never does.

                                                            Ralphie is a troll, and he has been delisted from tribe Meditation, as he should be, for being a vicious antisocial type. We have seen this from him repeatedly, specifically that he makes a general claim that I am in some unspecified sense a "liar".

                                                            Specifically, see my response as follows:


                                                            meditationclub.tribe.net/threa...33aa59


                                                            Re: tantric Buddhist empowerments and Ralph the anti social non-psychologist Sat, September 19, 2009 - 2:12 PM
                                                            Re Ralph:
                                                            "How do you expect anyone to take you serious if you keep lying to people? "

                                                            Lying to people about WHAT, Ralph? When? What subject matter? . . . .



                                                            Anyway, here is the crux of the argument. When someone makes a personal attack of this kind, it has to be specific, not a general statement like "you are pathological ( or a liar, etc. ) in general, for unspecified reasons."

                                                            That is not an argument. That is not a connected series of statements. It's just a slur. The type that, if allowed to proceed, tends to set up more and more vicious personal attacks against ANYONE. And that is contrary to the basic rules of communication and public discourse.

                                                            This type of unfounded abuse is wholly contrary to the basic rules of tribe.net, which is about reasoned and reasonable communication, not trash talk. Just as you cannot mix good food with poison, you cannot have healthy public communication with irrational unsupported vicious trash talk.

                                                            That is why it is important in certain cases to cry foul and call for examination of some posts and some posters. Some posters are trolls, and some particularly abusive trolls need to be removed from tribes.

                                                            Ralphie is a classic example. I have had to repeatedly challenge his hate talk and irrational unsubstantiated attacks on several tribes. It's a fair amount of work, but necessary, and one more way in which I can help tribe.net and people in general. Thus it is a good Mahayana deed to challenge even a small evildoer such as Ralphie.

                                                            Also, it is vitally important to defend rasonable Buddhist communication on tribe.net, particularly for the one guy who has done all the massive outreach ( books ,teacher,s events, mantras, etc. ) these last several years, me. If I do not defend my Mahayana outreach posts, these bridges I am building are torn down. It's as simple as that.

                                                            If trolls like Ralphie are allowed to flourish here and there, then their hate talk posts stand as ugly and dangerous precedents, and over time a host of orcs can cause more and more problems all over the place, and ultimately ruin the basic context of communication.

                                                            So, freedom of speech is important and necessary. I support freedom of speech of Communists, Nazis, the Taliban and lesser orcs like Ralphie. But there is a boundar yto defend to allow all people to have their say, and that is very simple. When you make a serious charge, you have to back it up.

                                                            Nobody here is kingmaker, nobody on tribe.net is judge, jury, and prosecutor.

                                                            In public commons like tribe.net, confirmed trolls like Ralphie are condemned out of their own hateful, irrational accusations, particularly when repeated across different tribes. And it is up to the moderator to uphold a reasonable standard of discourse, more or less free of irrational hate talk.

                                                            That is the basic point. I shouldn't have to break this down to such an elementary level, but the point keeps getting lost.

                                                            Fighting trolls is not an aggressive or antisocial behavior. It is a public service. And public service is what I'm here for.

                                                            You don't see this kind of problem on tribe Yoga Teachers. There I am treated with real respect. I am engaging in respectful and helpful dialogue. I'm not pushing a dogma per se. I'm here to build the bridges of communication, as I said, and that is only possible wit hreal communication and real mutual respect.

                                                            But there are those for whom this is never acceptable, those who will abuse others with real emotional violence and unwarranted attacks, like Ralphie the Troll. They just don't know when to stop. It's an obsessive-compulsive disorder, and so a small number of evil-doers can really cause problems all over the map. Otherwise we all pay the price, and we all fail to have the simple straightforward communications commons that is so important for human civilization.

                                                            If you want free speech and functioning communications commons, you have to invest in it. I have. Everybody here can see that. Nobody but nobody builds bridges of communication on tribe.net like I do. Period.

                                                            But the overhead can become basically intolerable. Trolls are an ever-present danger. They need to be flagged.

                                                            It's actually easy to defenestrate trolls, to "throw them out the window". Sometimes this is the only reasonable course of action. And of course, it is the standard to which all tribalists agreed to, including the moderators.

                                                            My words are clear and easily understood.

                                                            Now you know.

                                                            KT,
                                                            for the public good
                                                            • As chief junior midget orc-troll, full of hateful speech even after thousands of long vajrasattva recitations and dedicated practice, I can speak of understanding the sad true state of such folks from self experience. (Doing much better since dharma no terets anymore.)

                                                              I want to share what we trolls need to get better:
                                                              We need love and patience and loving guidance from folks blessed to be endowed with sublime compassion. We need to be shown the right way by example not condemned and given up on. It only makes the hate grow even larger and "legitimizes" it with justification. It fans the flames of suffering when even experienced teachers judge us with nothing but disgust. We need to learn right-view not more suffering. Just a moment of "kindness" removes mountain kalpas of suffering and seeds future healing! Buddha said even those that cause harm should be treated with love and respect. I thought tantra was all about transforming but I am often mistaken sadly. Please exscuse my advice coming from such a low place..... just trying to help.
                                                              PLEASE pray for Ralphie , Mickey Mouse, and myself. At least our silly names makes it easier to identify us sad chaps!
                                                              Just a thought from a thoughtless fool just trying to be helpful with water for a grease-fire. :)
                                                              In the dharma,
                                                              nyonpa
                                                              • Sending you all much love and troll kisses!
                                                                • KT,

                                                                  Please give Ralph a break.

                                                                  I have first hand information that he has been spending alot of time with a very well known Karma Kagyupa teacher in recent weeks.

                                                                  we all started somewhere and I will help him if he needs help. I am willing to bet that other tribe members will help also.

                                                                  Om Ah Hung!



                                                                  • Relax,

                                                                    Sat, November 7, 2009 - 12:36 AM
                                                                    Thanks Ngakpa Bill,

                                                                    I think Buddhism is big enough for us all.
                                                                    • K
                                                                      K
                                                                      offline 139

                                                                      No, not relax. Instead, go to safety first

                                                                      Tue, November 10, 2009 - 10:54 AM

                                                                      Re TCP
                                                                      "Buddha said even those that cause harm should be treated with love and respect."

                                                                      That's fine. And what is more, Guru Sakyamuni actually did that. He accepted into the sangha ( fellowship ) a fellow who was a former highwayman, who had killed one hundred people in his robberies. Guru Sakyamuni pointed out the error of his ways, and he repented.

                                                                      But that is someoone who repented, and who renounced negativity.

                                                                      With other murderers and abusive types generally, the rule is to Go To Safety First. That's from Marshall Rosenberg, PhD psychologist, in his system called Non-Violent Communication. This system is taught in different parts of the world, and is based on developing rapport and mutual understanding through several steps that in particular develop mutual empathy. So it is conative therapy, as well as being cognitive behavioral therapy.

                                                                      The point here is that turning the other cheek is quite different than lying in the road, as President John Adams would say. The purpose of a bodhisattva is to help people in a universal way, NOT to reward or support evil, hatred, violence, and destruction. Doing so contradicts the bodhisattva path.

                                                                      John Adams also pointed out, as lawyers are wont to do, that "facts are stubborn things". In this case, the FACT is, as you all can see, that Ralphie the anti-Sakyamuni / anti-Dalai Lama/ anti-Buddhist troll has repeatedly accused me of being a liar ( in general, unspecified terms ).

                                                                      My claim ( which is connected to high tantric Buddhist vows, to cajrasamaya ) is that I completed ten thousand hours of anuttarayogatantra mantra. Now that is either true or false, but I have publically said this on my talking vajra scepter, on my vajrasamaya. How could Ralphie the Troll POSSIBLY have followed me around for the past thirty years to speak against this claim? Which he clearly has done, again and again.

                                                                      Ralphie the Troll recently offered me a "truce", and as he did so he accused me of being a liar once again? Is that arrogance and abuse something to accept or forgive? No, certainly not. Especially not in the context of civil discourse, or mahayana vows, where reasonable and honest speech is the baseline for interaction.

                                                                      And what is reasonable and honest speech? AT A MINIMUM it means not going around and publically accusing people of being complete liars, when there is no evidence or reasoning to back any charge of any kind.

                                                                      I am very sorry to hear the RUMOR that Ralphie the Troll is contaminating a Karma Kagyu fellowship with his irrational and mean-spirited presence. I am a direct student of HH Khentin Tai Situpa, and the HH the Seventeenth Karmapa, and three major Karma Kagyu abbots ( Khenpo Thrangyu Rinbochay and so forth ), and Retreat Master Lama Mingyur Rinbochay.

                                                                      Let's say Ralphie the Troll now has Mahayana refuge. Well, that only means he is in biggger trouble than before. One of the Five Primary Transgresions is to Divide The Sangha. If Ralphie is nominal mahayan sangha, he has begun by accusing me of being completely false, and without evidence. So he is at least breaking the Ten Precepts, Mahayana Vows, and publically attacking a claimed vajrayana Buddhsit spiritual doctor, on the basis of being Karma Kagyu fellowship.

                                                                      Grin grin. Ralphie is going from Bad To Worse. The more he makes mistakes, the more he serves as an example of how not to communicate, and how not to behave. The more he fights, the more he loses. And that really really works for me.

                                                                      As it is said, If you can't be a good example, at least don't be a horrible warning. In terms of speech karma, Ralphie the Troll is a Horrible Warning, Karma Kagyu or not.

                                                                      And that is what we teachers call A Teachable Moment.

                                                                      I love and respect the Mahayana. That's why I defend the Mahayana from irrational and abusive punks like Ralphie the Troll. And I've been doing a good job. As I said, Go To Safety First.

                                                                      KT

                                                                      "The proclamation of the Dharma is Fearless."
                                                                      -Manjusri




                                                                      • Re: No, not relax. Instead, go to safety first

                                                                        Tue, November 10, 2009 - 12:15 PM
                                                                        >"I am very sorry to hear the RUMOR that Ralphie the Troll is contaminating a Karma Kagyu fellowship
                                                                        >with his irrational and mean-spirited presence."

                                                                        Let it go. The above statement is going a bit far even compared to your usual moderately aggressive writing style.

                                                                        >"I am a direct student of HH Khentin Tai Situpa, and the HH the Seventeenth Karmapa, and
                                                                        >three major Karma Kagyu abbots ( Khenpo Thrangyu Rinbochay and so forth ), and Retreat
                                                                        >Master Lama Mingyur Rinbochay. "

                                                                        If that is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) ask yourself what they would advise in this situation.

                                                                        Somehow I doubt it would be to continue to attack a person who has already stated his desire to let the dispute rest.

                                                                        Try to remember that if one is constantly going to invoke the names of well known teachers it might be wise to actually try represent their teachings on tolerance and compassion.

                                                                        Please KT, Its time to let this one drop.
                                                                      • What Gives? Did Shrek Spit On Your Ice Cream Cone?

                                                                        Tue, November 10, 2009 - 2:19 PM
                                                                        One difference.....

                                                                        Shakyamuni LOVINGLY pointed out the error of his ways and gave proper anecdotes. Shakyamuni said to simply not accept the "gifts" of hate. Then you do not become the owner of hate.

                                                                        Psychology is illusion. LOVE is real. I have accepted a lot of hate from judgemental types in high positions thinking it was something precious that I should nurture so I can give it back like an old xmas fruitcake double-wrapped and taped tightly and have my day as king jerk. Nothing new.

                                                                        I am frustrated because I am judgemental type in low position.
                                                                        Perhaps we may transform from doo-doo into lotus?

                                                                        I wish you loved trolls, I could learn a lot from you instead of hate.
                                                                        Does your "vajra pride" from all of your more than thirty years of deity practice of becoming a buddha allow for this bleak view? If so, thanks for the heads up! I will give up all practice now!

                                                                        Especially since you have had so many blessings from several of the highest rinpoches!
                                                                        Even avalokiteshvara who created all the hindu gods and tibetans was once a monkey! So there is hope?

                                                                        I pray that our lack of equanimity is healed.

                                                                        Maybe we can sometime be of service instead of serving hate.

                                                                        -nyonpa
                                                                      • Re: No, not relax. Instead, go to safety first

                                                                        Wed, November 11, 2009 - 5:57 PM
                                                                        KT,

                                                                        Ralph has been attending a KTC of which I personally help to establish. The Lama and teachers there are not only vajra siblings but also good friends. There is no reason to label my post as a rumor as this is first hand information.

                                                                        You and I share many of the same teachers, but what is taught and what is heard seems to often be different amongst disciples.

                                                                        This sticky dialogue has transformed into "Shenpa".

                                                                        This is not a teachable moment unless you are teaching to attack.

                                                                        ...as others have said "give it a break"....there is no positive bodhicittha being generated here.

                                                                        Thank you.

                                                                        • Re: No, not relax. Instead, go to safety first

                                                                          Sun, November 15, 2009 - 8:02 AM
                                                                          I initially visited the center back in 2006, but because of being recently jadded from a previous teacher, I was very apprehensive. I ended up not returning for over three years because of one person there that made me feel uneasy. I mean, who wouldn't feel uncomfortable meditating next to a well known homosexual pervert who would inch towards you without asking for permission to invade personal space boundaries? It's not like I was suspsicious of his lifestyle, he made his interest and intentions very obvious outside of the shrine, and I was quite shocked to see such a character in such a self contradictory position.


                                                                          At anyrate, the center recently held a meditation-athon for world peace, and I decided to not only attend, but to hang out with them throughout the weekend. Since then, I have stayed in contact with them. I have missed the most recent sessions due to school obligations, but I am working on getting it lined up so that I can practice on saturday mornings. I haven't decided 100% to take refuge, but it has been in the back of my mind for over 4 years now.

                                                                          Now regarding K, I really don't mind his comments. His statements reflect his conditioned perception and have nothing to do with me. See, I study philosophy as well as psychology, and we argue for the sake of truth, not for the sake of a inflated sense of self. So when I argued with K on a point, he took it very personal and since then he has not let it go. Him being a fortune teller of my fate has nothing to do with my fate, but the fate of the false caricature he create in his own mind.

                                                                          K, don't worry about 'my' fate, because 'I' will be just fine:).

                                                                          I hope that I have not offended anyone else, that is certainly what I don't want. Even when I first spoke with our (Bill and I) mutual friends at KTC, I discussed some of the issues that I have with Tibetan Buddhism. Even so, these people are authentic and caring, and to join them on the path of enlightenment is a great joy for me. All the minor details are not significant in comparison to the relationships that I have recently cultivated with the Tibetan Buddhist. Deep down inside, well all know that this path is lonely and tough at times, and we need to stick together because there are very few of us that understand the suffering that we are coming to recognize, so it's best that we not discourage each other anymore than what we are having imposed on us from people who are truely suffering.
                                                                          • What bad luck!

                                                                            Mon, November 16, 2009 - 2:07 PM
                                                                            You should have told him that you were only interested in studying buddhism NOT bootyism. He might have had a misunderstanding, especially if you were just smiling and not saying anything!





                                                                            • Re: What bad luck!

                                                                              Wed, November 18, 2009 - 9:42 AM
                                                                              Ha! yea, it was really weird because he knew who I was. I am best friends with a former coffee shop owner of which he used to hang out at and prey on young kids. I am not joking, and I am not lying. I have personally spoken to kids that have had encounters with this man that 'just wants to help them'. He said they needed a father figure in their life. I felt in the back of my mind that this guy is trying to manipulate their oedipus complex. Not to mention, this guy maybe handicapped, but he is well known for not taking 'no' for an answer, thus I just stopped going because I couldn't concentrate on Buddhism while some pediphile is paying the 'troll toll'. ha ha
                                                                              • Re: What bad luck!

                                                                                Wed, November 18, 2009 - 9:54 AM
                                                                                Oh and Bill, thanks for being so kind. Our friends at KTC are really great and I am going to practice with them on saturday. I have been strapped for time as the semester is winding down, but I am starting to value my state of consciousness far more than a title that I can acheive from the academic meatgrinder. I am considering taking a leap of faith on this path and slowing down my academic progress so I have more time to balance my spiritual progress. Take care, and I hope to see you there one day!
                                                                              • Re: What bad luck!

                                                                                Wed, November 18, 2009 - 11:52 AM
                                                                                I am sorry for being silly about such an unpleasant thing. Glad things are well now!
                                                                                • K
                                                                                  K
                                                                                  offline 139


                                                                                  Re bogus quote above from Ryan:
                                                                                  "My statement was a characterization of what KT said -from memory- which was less that perfect.. Below is a direct quote of the original statement from 2004. I offer it as clarification and *without comment*.

                                                                                  He mistakenly quotes me as saying
                                                                                  “I have about fifty basic mantras for Padmasambhava, more than almost anyone in human history.”

                                                                                  This is of course nonsense.

                                                                                  First of all, I have only been enrolled on tribe.net since mid 2007. Thus, there was never any similar statement by me on Tribe several years before I even set up this tribe account.

                                                                                  I never said anything about having more kinds of any mantra discipline than "almost anyone". The Canadian teacher Lama Richard Barron certainly has more mantra than I do. He is both a Kagyu and Nyingma guru. He translates and publishes deity yoga texts for different teachers and schools, and translates worldwide.

                                                                                  I use many many texts from Lama Richard Barron, and recommend his work to many.

                                                                                  At present I have eighty mantras for Guru Padmasambhava. This is very unusual, but it is actually somewhat common for western practitioners to have ten or twenty Padmasambhava mantras. There is no upper limit for Padmasambhava mantras, they are in principle unbounded.

                                                                                  I expect the Dalai Lama has eighty Or More mantras for Padmasambhava. He has trained and received transmissions very very broadly.

                                                                                  No one has any ultimate set of mantras. There are different Buddhist schools established in different parts of Asia, many of proven lineage and effectiveness, and there is no one overall set of practices or mantras, so the statement is in itself quite ridiculous.

                                                                                  In summary, it is very straightforward to say that both Lama Richard Barron and the Dalai Lama EACH have more mantras than I do. The quantity of Padmasambhava mantras is given to show some real depth and breadth of exposure to this type of guru yoga, and it does matter.

                                                                                  Thanks again to Ryan for attacking me with yet another falsehood, with yet another straw man argument. It's a most basic debate fallacy, and he is determined to make more all the time.

                                                                                  Ryan has also made a most serious attack against me elsewhere, saying that I somehow "hated over a billion people" ! Too bad he failed to specify which billion ! ! ! There are very serious consequences for such egregious and dishonest public ad hominem attacks, on a couple different levels.

                                                                                  Fact is, I don't even hate one pr two people, not even intermittently. I get frustrated and concerned from time to time, but just go forward with the Work That Matters. Truth and Good Karma Will Out. That's the principle.

                                                                                  As they say in Latin,
                                                                                  "Et Lux In Tenebris Lucit."
                                                                                  The Light In The Darkness Shall Shine!

                                                                                  KT

                                                                                  • >First of all, I have only been enrolled on tribe.net since mid 2007

                                                                                    Who said that you made the statement on Tribe?

                                                                                    Here is the thread from which the *exact quote* was taken. .

                                                                                    groups.yahoo.com/group/Ary...ssage/1211

                                                                                    The quote is right there for the whole world to see... Now what do you have say about that? Who is the one spouting falsehoods?


                                                                                    >Thanks again to Ryan for attacking me with yet another falsehood

                                                                                    How can quoting you be attacking you with a falsehood?
                                                                                    • BTW I had already sent the link to original thread in a private email to KT well before his most recent post, so he was perfectly aware that he made the statement and that it wasn't made on tribe.net.

                                                                                      I guess KT was hoping I wouldn't publicly post the link illustrating his dishonesty in this matter, because I've been trying to respect his anonymity. But he forfeited his right to this anonymity when he denied making the comment long after I sent him the link proving that he did in fact make it.

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