Advertisement
Hello,
I recently heard about the concept of "lineage compatibility," which I believe refers to the idea that one should not take initiations and commitments with two lineages if there is a break of samaya between them. But I am confused as to what this means, and how it fits into modern, Rime approaches. If it were essentially true, then wouldn't it be impossible to take initiations with both Gelukpa and Kagyupa Lamas, for example, since there was historically a war between the schools? Or would it be impossible to take initiations with both Drikung and Drukpa Kagyu lineages, since they once fought a war over Bhutan? Obviously, H.H. Dalai Lama and many other prominent lineage heads are actively promoting inter-lineage empowerments and so forth.
So does "lineage compatibility" have any meaning in the modern era?
I recently heard about the concept of "lineage compatibility," which I believe refers to the idea that one should not take initiations and commitments with two lineages if there is a break of samaya between them. But I am confused as to what this means, and how it fits into modern, Rime approaches. If it were essentially true, then wouldn't it be impossible to take initiations with both Gelukpa and Kagyupa Lamas, for example, since there was historically a war between the schools? Or would it be impossible to take initiations with both Drikung and Drukpa Kagyu lineages, since they once fought a war over Bhutan? Obviously, H.H. Dalai Lama and many other prominent lineage heads are actively promoting inter-lineage empowerments and so forth.
So does "lineage compatibility" have any meaning in the modern era?
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: Lineage Compatibility (Drikung & Drukpa, etc)
Thu, May 10, 2012 - 8:01 AMI think the issue isn't about compatibility per se, but about avoiding lineages that have broken samaya. And this *may* subjective in some cases (certainly if you ask different people, you will get different answers as to which lineages are degenerate or not), but we have to do our best to determine whether the lineage is pure prior to getting too involved.
If taking empowerments from both Gelugpa and Kagyupa lamas is a no-no, then most practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism are screwed, since nearly all our teachers, or our teachers' teachers have done so. (and definitely the heads of the schools) Probably the best approach is, keep your samaya pure to the best of your understanding and ability, continually purify your shortcomings and ignorance, and practice pure vision toward all authentic teachers and lineages. And if you're worried about taking a specific empowerment for reasons you mentioned, the only fail-safe way to ease your doubts or prevent you from making a mistake is to ask your main teacher! sorry for the cliché advice :D -
-
Re: Lineage Compatibility (Drikung & Drukpa, etc)
Thu, May 10, 2012 - 10:07 AMYea. Some practices started in one lineage and spread to almost all.
Example: Six arm mahakala (from Drikung i think), White Whahakala
from Shangpa. Konchog Chidu is a Nyingma Terma widely practiced
in all Kagyu branches, and Vajrayogini has two main forms-- Gelug
comes from Sakya; Ka-Nying share the other form.
There was sectarian war involving all the lineages. Only the Nyingma
were uninterested in political position.
So, I think the advice is more to avoid particular teachers with problem
sangha, or damaged lineage. Make sense? -
-
Re: Lineage Compatibility (Drikung & Drukpa, etc)
Thu, May 10, 2012 - 2:30 PMI'm further reminded of the value of Termas in general...
The shorter the lineage, the more powerful, for the simple
reason that fewer generations of people have been involved
and the risks that they were not perfect practitioners...
Therefore, best case is to receive directly from the terton
him or herself. Next best case, one of the terton's direct
disciples. in that way the risk of damaged samaya hasn't
impacted the power of the lineage. This was Guru Rinpoche's
solution to the challenge of lineage.
-
-
-
Re: Lineage Compatibility (Drikung & Drukpa, etc)
Thu, May 17, 2012 - 9:44 AMOak, it is usually a question of Dharmapals. That is what is usually said.
In general, the more you stay on and learn one thing, the better you will ultimately learn and further your practice.
If you have Karma with a bunch of different Lamas, it diverts your path, and can make things more difficult for your root teacher.
Also, if you really know your lineage, the best thing to do is stay put. As Westerners it's teribly difficult for us to know what is real Dharma, and what is possibly a sham (in America everyone's a Lama). -
-
Re: Lineage Compatibility (Drikung & Drukpa, etc), as in Mahayana
Thu, May 31, 2012 - 12:10 PM
Hi Ezekiel.
You're fine.
There was political struggle between Sakyas and Drikungpas long ago in Tibet.
Not now. They get along fine.
There was struggle between Karma Kagyus and Gelugpas not too many decades ago.
Not now. They get along just fine.
There once was heavy criticism of Nyingma and Dzogchen doctrines and practices, mainly amoing the Gelugpas.
That has mostly ended, since the Dalai Lama is strongly in favor of Nyingma doctrine and practice.
That leaves only the Bonpo. They are non-Buddhist by lineage, but they actually have some overlap with the Nyingma.
Not an issue here per se.
I am by lineage command disallowed to do any Bonpo practice, but that does not affect you.
Tantric Buddhists ( of classical Tibet and Japan ) also incorporate quite a bit of Hindu practice, which I won't go into here.
Re Celestial:
"In general, the more you stay on and learn one thing, the better you will ultimately learn and further your practice.
If you have Karma with a bunch of different Lamas, it diverts your path, and can make things more difficult for your root teacher.
Also, if you really know your lineage, the best thing to do is stay put. "
KT answers:
I have Nyingma type Padmasambhava empowerments and practices from major teachers of All Four Tibetan lineages, including the Dalai Lama.
Padmasambhava is of enormous importance in the Sakya and Karma Kagyu lineages, and to me.
This is a primary focus for me, and I assure you, as a tantric guru, that there is no obstacle nor diversion involved.
I have complete Kalacakra master empowerment from the Kagyu master Kalu Rinpoche and from the Dalai Lama.
There is no obstacle nor diversion here.
I have ninety high empowerments of Vajrasattva from many lineages, including thirty seven high empowerments of Vajrakilaya - Vajrasattva.
There is no obstacle nor division. They all come from the same source.
All of these are Mahayana teachings, so there is no contradiction.
Practicing lots and lots of Padmasambhava, and lots andf lots of Vajrasattva, does NOT divert my path.
It empowers my path.
I have eighty seven mantras for Padmasambhava. One of these is the guru yoga of the Second Karmapa, Karma Pakshi, which includes Guru Padmasambhava.
Drikung Kagyu teachers and Karma Kagyu teachers and Sakya teachers typically do a lot of Nyingma and Padmasambhava and Dzogchen practice.
And it is all Mahayana.
And none of it is Jewish, Christian, Islamic, or Sufi.
By universal agreement.
This is a very definite and concrete statement.
I could say a lot more, but this covers the essentials.
Any questions?
KT
Et lux in tenebris lucit.
"The light in the darkness shall shine." -
-
Re: Lineage Compatibility (Drikung & Drukpa, etc), as in Mahayana
Mon, June 11, 2012 - 1:20 PMThanks for all the great replies.
And, as always, thanks to KT for his generous teachings and genuinely Middle Path approach. -
-
Re: Lineage Compatibility (Drikung & Drukpa, etc), as in Mahayana
Mon, June 11, 2012 - 1:22 PMAlso, glad to hear that the general response is ultimately one of common sense! -
-
Re: "everyone is a claimed tantric Buddhist guru"
Thu, June 14, 2012 - 11:44 AM
Re Celestial:
"in America everyone's a Lama. . . "
No. Of course not.
Re Oak -
Thank you for the direct affirmation.
It helps my teaching work.
This communication is based in Mahayana theory and practice.
All "Tibetan" Buddhism is Mahayana.
So is most Buddhism throughout northern Asia.
As Mahayana practitioners, we have everything in common.
Just so you know.
KT
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Lineage Compatibility (Drikung & Drukpa, etc)
Sun, June 24, 2012 - 10:19 AMI suggest you get in touch with rime teachers. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is big fan and also practioner of drukpa kagyu lineage (among several others) -
-
Keeping the tantric lineages alive: The great nonsectarian transmission collection "Rinchen Terdzod" is key, not a "diversion"
Mon, July 9, 2012 - 2:26 PM
Re Celestial:
"If you have Karma with a bunch of different Lamas, it diverts your path, and can make things more difficult for your root teacher. "
Of course not.
Mahayana is Mahayana, right?
All authentic tantric Buddhist lineages and empowerments are pure expressions of the Mahayana.
All authentic lamas are *primarily* committed to the Mahayana as a whole, not just to one sect or lineage.
We all owe a truly extraordinary debt to the great nonsectarian teacher Jamgon Kongrol Lodro Thaye.
He went all around Tibet, collecting rare and near extinct lineages.
The result of this is the Rinchen Terdzod cycle, which contains over one thousand empowerments.
With the entry of the Chinese military into Tibet, much or most of the tantric teaching lineages could have been lost forever.
However, we have the Rinchen Terdzod, and
1) HH Dudjom Rinpoche gave this cycle ten times.
2) this has been given in the West.
I follow in the nonsectarian school of Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye, and am a direct student of his reincarnation, V.V. Kalu Rinpoche.
Another main teacher of the modern Rime / Nonsectarian school is Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo. I am a student of his reincarnation the previous HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
I also use several of the primary sadhana texts of HH Dudjom Rinpoche, such as Troma, Vajrakilaya, Dorje Drollo, and many others.
If anyone goes against such priceless teachers as Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye, V.V. Kalu Rinpoche, HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, or HH Dudjom Rinpoche, I feel sorry for their ignorance and foolishness.
The authentic Rime / Nonsectarian is the lifeblood of Buddhist tantra today.
Without this approach and without such transmission cycles as the Rinchen Terdzod, the Buddhist world would be far poorer and weaker and severely damaged.
Furthermore, HH the Dalai Lama ( Gelugpa ) is a direct Dzogchen/ Atiyoga/ Great Perfection student of HH Dilgo Khyentse ( Nyingma / Nonsectarian ).
I don't think you or anyone has the right to sneer at him.
Yeah. I "have Karma with a bunch of different Lamas", over sixty in fact, and my Mahayana is much much stronger for this.
Unlike those who somehow claim - without evidence - that Mahayana and Rime are somehow "diversion" and "obstacle-making".
Pan Buddhist / Rime / Mahayana ia how most of us practice in the West.
This is good and healthy and in a very real sense necessary.
Long live the Mahayana! ( x3 )
KT
Et Lux In Tenebris Lucit!
The Light in the Darkness Shall Shine!
. . . Here as elsewhere.
Somebody has got to know how these things work.
If it is To Be, then it is Up To Me.
-
-
Recommended: text on core Mahayana teaching, since all "Tibetan" Buddhists take up Mahayana precepts and shal-dam / life advice
Mon, November 12, 2012 - 1:45 PM
The following key book reference is from my post
sanfrancisco.tribe.net/listin...830ef8b
The empowerments mentioned are all Nyingma or Nyingma-derived.
Note that I reference both Nyingma and Kagyu teachers.
The basic book reference is from the Kagyu tradition.
It is excellent for all Mahayana practitioners, of whatever nationality or lineage.
Over a thousand people have read this article in less than a month.
So all these issues are being cleared up all over the map, and on scores of tribes.
I refer here in particular to the following "issue":
Hey "Celestial" - listen up!
If you have Padmasambhava or Vajrasattva or Tara empowerments with a bunch of different Lamas, it does Not "divert" your path, and Won't make things more "difficult" for your root teacher. All of these are based on Mahayana vows. All of these empowerments from authentic Mahayana teachers serve to strengthen Mahayana vows, when approached responsibly.
Notice has been Posted.
Nuff said.
KT
May All Beings Benefit, and in particular, may all claimed Buddhists become familiar with the Mahayana worldview and principles of Mahayana practice, which is demonstrably not Catholic or Pauline Christian, Communist, Jewish, Sufi, Republican, Mormon etc. You have been helped. Again.
-------------------------
Foundational Buddhist Principles for Newcomers
The following small book, "Heartfelt Advice", is a key text for newcomers to Buddhism. It is written by a Sanskrit scholar, retreatant and tantric abbot, Lama Dudjom Dorjee, and he conveys the essential Great Way / Mahayana and tantric Buddhist worldview very directly to all.
"Heartfelt Advice" is a great book because it saves a lot of time and prevents a lot of confusion. The text provides a self-contained, clear, extremely accessible and functional gateway to understanding the overall Buddhist teaching in terms of core classical principles for personal practice.
This book is based entirely on classical teaching of many centuries, and speaks straight to the point, without any casual sidetracks, dilutions or digressions. It is very concentrated and useful long term as a set of continuing reminders for self-managing Buddhists of any Mahayana Buddhist approach in an unsupportive, non-meditative, non-Buddhist muggle culture.
Thus, this book of wise counsel is extraordinarily useful for contemporary western readers. Lama Dudjom Dorje, direct representative of His Holiness the Karmapa, has been teaching in the West for many years, and he ably covers a broad array of topics for all Buddhist practitioners in the simplest and most direct terms.
As a tantric Buddhist guru here in the West, this is now the main text I recommend as a starting point for new practitioners and interested outsiders. It is also strongly recommended by major Buddhist teachers guiding many practitioners in the West. All that is required to benefit is straightforward English and a willingness to reflect on oneself, on life, and on karma.
Heartfelt Advice [Paperback]
Lama Dudjom Dorjee (Author)
Paperback: 192 pages
Publisher: Snow Lion; 1 edition (March 16, 2010)
ISBN-10: 1559393467
www.amazon.com/Heartfelt-...1559393467/
"A terrific example of the traditional genre of shal-dam, or life advice, written for contemporary North Americans. This small book touches lightly on profound topics, gently suggesting ways of viewing the world and one's existence in it in a radically new way. The ninety-five short sections—many less than a single page—address foundational ideas of the Buddhist path such as renunciation, impermanence, and cause and effect."—Alexander Gardner, Buddhadharma: The Practitioner's Quarterly
"Heartfelt Advice, from the uniquely qualified scholar and meditation master Ven. Lama Dudjom Dorjee, is a wonderful treasure for Western Dharma practitioners. Anyone who comes into contact with this comprehensive collection of key Buddhist teachings will receive the gift of priceless wisdom." —Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, author of Mind beyond Death [ and tantric Buddhist guru of the Kagyu lineage ]
"Whoever reads this book will receive blessings and benefit. . . . [Lama Dudjom Dorjee] is both scholarly and a highly accomplished practitioner." —Ven. Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche [ tantric Buddhist abbot of the Kagyu lineage ]
"Heartfelt Advice provides a brilliant picture of the depth and breadth of Buddhist meditation. This book is a masterful integration of Buddhist teachings and how they can be applied in difficult life situations. This book provides a unique view formed from his experiences as a Tibetan refuge, Lama scholar, father, and husband. After thirty years of teaching around the world, Heartfelt Advice is a gift to behold." —Dr. William Bradshaw, PhD, professor at University of Tennessee
-------------------------
-
-